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  1. #41
    Senior Member Bamboo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    But usually you are not aware you are making an assumption. I think the enemy in your evidence model is doubt. Because even when confronted with evidence, you can just require more and more evidence to believe it.

    ---


    I think here the enemy is assumption (or righteousness), because you tend to assume your faith-based belief is right even perhaps in the face of conflicting data.


    So, to balance them out, in the evidence model, one must be willing to believe.

    And in the faith model, one must be willing to disbelieve, as it were.




    Now I sound like Victor.
    "The enemy" refers to the first person interpretation ('mindset') of the user of the model. You have it reversed.

    "The enemy" refers to "what is to be avoided."

    Otherwise, the point that always more evidence may be needed is a pitfall, and the rest makes sense.
    Don't know how much it'll bend til it breaks.

  2. #42
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bamboo View Post
    "The enemy" refers to the first person interpretation ('mindset') of the user of the model. You have it reversed.

    "The enemy" refers to "what is to be avoided."

    Otherwise, the point that always more evidence may be needed is a pitfall, and the rest makes sense.
    We also need to separate mundane practical knowledge from more theoretical knowledge.

    An electrical engineer doesn't really need belief or evidence to know that a basic circuit is going to work (barring human error). They just assemble it and it does what it does regardless of what anyone thinks or believes.

    That's how it works everywhere. Evidence only leads you into the direction of what is true - it does not make something true, such that once a truth is actually found, a differing theory or belief doesn't change it. It is what it is and becomes readily apparent, just like a circuit to an engineer.

    Edit: and actually I'm reminded of Portal when GLaDOS teaches you how to maintain momentum through portals and sums it up quite simply as "speedy thing goes in, speedy thing comes out." What more is there to know about it? It does what it does before we even know why it does it.

    [YOUTUBE=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjeMOhb9enI]Speedy Thing Goes In, Speedy Thing Comes Out[/YOUTUBE]

  3. #43
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turtledove View Post
    For some odd reason...I can't help but feel a little insulted by some of these posts. I mean I'm Pentecostal and maybe I'm not all that brilliant nor very intelligent in answering people's questions, but I am very logical in reasoning compared to many of the ESFXs in my church. I don't witness to people or do all that door knocking or whatever because of the exact reasons of discouragment that are in these posts. I don't believe in being pushy with other people or whatever. I absolutely hate rejection. Do I believe in the OP post on youtube? No! Do I do that snake holding garbage they do up in the Kentucky area? No! Have I done the "irrational" stuff? Yes. I mean, come on guys! There is some crazy stuff that God told people to do in the Bible. Do I believe there are crazy people who have said "God said to me...?" Yes and no. The thing is it all boils down to faith and really....I wish everyone would stop criticizing us. Heck, I wish this part of the forum never existed or at least people be a bit more polite in their opinions about people's religious experiences, but I know that's unrealistic expectation from anyone.
    If you don't like this part of the forum, why do you read it? And who are the "us" you wish people would not criticise? Pentacostals, or Pentacostals who ARE pushy about witnessing, door-knocking, and telling others that their faith is wrong or inferior? Every religion, indeed every human group, has people in it who give a bad name to the rest of them who are just going about their business in a calm, respectful way. I freely criticize my own coreligionists who do their share of this. Yes, the world is full of people who do crazy things because "God told them to do it". If I could prove the difference between true spiritual inspiration, honest insanity, and deliberate manipulation in such cases, I could have a lucrative second career.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  4. #44
    Senior Member ceecee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    I doubt anyone would dare show me such videos for purposes other than amusement.
    Exactly.
    I like to rock n' roll all night and *part* of every day. I usually have errands... I can only rock from like 1-3.

  5. #45
    Senior Member ceecee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turtledove View Post
    For some odd reason...I can't help but feel a little insulted by some of these posts. I mean I'm Pentecostal and maybe I'm not all that brilliant nor very intelligent in answering people's questions, but I am very logical in reasoning compared to many of the ESFXs in my church. I don't witness to people or do all that door knocking or whatever because of the exact reasons of discouragment that are in these posts. I don't believe in being pushy with other people or whatever. I absolutely hate rejection. Do I believe in the OP post on youtube? No! Do I do that snake holding garbage they do up in the Kentucky area? No! Have I done the "irrational" stuff? Yes. I mean, come on guys! There is some crazy stuff that God told people to do in the Bible. Do I believe there are crazy people who have said "God said to me...?" Yes and no. The thing is it all boils down to faith and really....I wish everyone would stop criticizing us. Heck, I wish this part of the forum never existed or at least people be a bit more polite in their opinions about people's religious experiences, but I know that's unrealistic expectation from anyone.
    YOU may not witness to people or do all that door knocking but you are part of an organization that does. "You people" have just as much right to say - this vid is insane straight up batshit crazy as you have to proclaim your faith on this forum.
    I like to rock n' roll all night and *part* of every day. I usually have errands... I can only rock from like 1-3.

  6. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by ceecee View Post
    YOU may not witness to people or do all that door knocking but you are part of an organization that does. "You people" have just as much right to say - this vid is insane straight up batshit crazy as you have to proclaim your faith on this forum.
    Ceecee it is time for your smacked botty I think

  7. #47
    Senior Member Bamboo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    We also need to separate mundane practical knowledge from more theoretical knowledge.

    An electrical engineer doesn't really need belief or evidence to know that a basic circuit is going to work (barring human error). They just assemble it and it does what it does regardless of what anyone thinks or believes.

    That's how it works everywhere. Evidence only leads you into the direction of what is true - it does not make something true, such that once a truth is actually found, a differing theory or belief doesn't change it. It is what it is and becomes readily apparent, just like a circuit to an engineer.

    Edit: and actually I'm reminded of Portal when GLaDOS teaches you how to maintain momentum through portals and sums it up quite simply as "speedy thing goes in, speedy thing comes out." What more is there to know about it? It does what it does before we even know why it does it.
    Sure. This makes sense and all, that's a good distinction to make, though maybe my intent wasn't clear in my post.



    Instead of simply saying "these people are crazy" which isn't very useful as a description and is mostly pejorative shorthand, I'm pointing out a specific way they may be approaching the situation.

    a model.

    in the 'faith' model people believe that they should avoid doubt. at an extreme you have ideas such as 'doubt is the devil creeping in', or less extreme, that if you don't believe you won't get into heaven, or less extreme still that doubt will undermine your work for god, etc.

    so, when these 'miracles' are performed, and then the person starts to think "hey, this really didn't work so well", the corrective action (in their model) is to believe harder. because if they believe hard enough they will be rewarded (or if they don't they will be punished).

    there is also an element of theatrics here, and other factors as well.

    so despite the fact none of this stuff actually works, they force themselves to believe harder, and the more they doubt the more they run from that doubt back into faith.

    thus, a cycle. which would explain that despite evidence (in fact, in part *because* of evidence) to the contrary, they maintain seemingly 'crazy' beliefs which are otherwise simple to disprove.
    Don't know how much it'll bend til it breaks.

  8. #48
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    Any kind of group think scares me. Nearly every atrocity in life, from bullying to genocide is the product of group think. Its the most dangerous force on the planet.

  9. #49
    Junior Member moon's Avatar
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    When people believe in religion and not in the light.

  10. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by dala View Post
    Some people invest a lot of themselves into their faith. They have a lot to lose if it were gone, and so they do everything they can to solidify their beliefs, whether it is convincing themselves that faith healing exists or prosthetising to people who are uninterested. It's not really insanity, but it is unhealthy.
    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    That is very condescending. Perhaps they have faith because they know something you don't.
    I suppose it depends on what you mean by "faith". If it means believing in the things that "happened" in the video, then I agree with dala.

    Quote Originally Posted by 93JC View Post
    Didn't watch the vid but if it involves religion I'm inclined to say it's crazy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    This is a little closed minded. I'm betting that you're still in the first half or quarter of life.
    I suppose both of you are speaking from experience. But what is your evaluation of the actual content of the video? Is it "crazy" or not?

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

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