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  1. #21
    Senior Member Pseudo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    This is just the doctrine of original sin.. something invented by Augustine. A doctrine that wasn't entirely agreed on by the early church (especially some orthodox). Only adopted fully by Catholics and Protestants. Who make up only half of the Christian world. I don't totally buy into the idea of Jesus as a sacrifice, in the same way they do. If Jesus was really meant to take upon all sins, then he would have never wasted the majority of his life being a wandering rabbi. A teacher teaches the ignorant, for the sake of correction. A teacher doesn't waste time with the utterly corrupt and hopeless. He spent a lot of time prescribing ideas on good thinking, good attitude, good ways to avoid damnation, etc.. If none of it mattered, and that we were truly corrupt to the bone, and all he had to do was die for their sins, then he would have cut to the chase. He was wasting his time living into his 30s, if that's the case. He could have died as a toddler or something. Problem solved.

    edit: Hmm.. this is way off the subject. Carry on.
    If he knew that he would be a sacrifice then why would he think they were hopeless? Also not perfect =\= totally corrupt and hopeless in the first place. I would assume he wandered and taught to correct misconceptions about god and to make it clear why people should accept him as a saviour. In the framework I'm talking about (which you dont't have to accept) Jesus death alone doesn't grant you salvation you have to accept it. So dying quietly and not telling anyone would pretty much defeat the point.

    Edit: forgot to mention that there is also the idea that He lived to thirty so that it could be clear that he faced all the temptations of a normal person be disn't succumb to them. A sin free toddler is only mildly impressive. A thirty year old man is.

  2. #22
    Senior Member Pseudo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    Funnily that was one of the books the early Jews debated a lot on. Some didn't think it belonged and thought impure/merely erotic.
    I read somewhere that they had an age restriction for studying it. Hot stuff. Hahah

  3. #23
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    In the framework I'm talking about (which you dont't have to accept) Jesus death alone doesn't grant you salvation you have to accept it.
    There's little in the framework of Augustine's original sin doctrine that requires explicit "acceptance". After him, Europe used "conversion" methods that had little to do with any conscious choice. Since humans were corrupt, and nothing they did ultimately mattered, they could just be saved through baptism or other rites. Infants who were baptized would be saved, for example (and infants who were not... well, good luck to them, I guess. No matter what they did, they didn't have the correct ritual to get them reborn from Adam's sinful fall). A king could make his entire nation bend the knee to a god they didn't have a clue about, and get them baptized, and suddenly they could be a "Christian nation" afterwards. History is full of Christians who didn't even know why they were Christian.

  4. #24
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    @Jennifer

    I think there actually is some short passage about women "turning to unnatural activities with other women" in there somewhere.
    Try Romans 1. It's definitely not in the OT, but it sounds like it might be something Paul said.

    And just to be clear I have no issue with legalizing gay marriage, I think separation of church and state is one of the most valuable aspects of the US government. I just don't like when people argue based on false ideas.
    no problem with that, I share that same value. At least we should be correct and honest, regardless of what we decide.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #25
    Senior Member Pseudo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Try Romans 1. It's definitely not in the OT, but it sounds like it might be something Paul said.



    no problem with that, I share that same value. At least we should be correct and honest, regardless of what we decide.
    Did I imply it was OT? Didn't mean too.

  6. #26
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    Did I imply it was OT? Didn't mean too.
    You didn't -- I wrote that, then noticed later in your post I think you said it might not be in the Law... no worries.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #27
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Try Romans 1. It's definitely not in the OT, but it sounds like it might be something Paul said.
    Paul said a lot of odd things about sex. Like he wanted everyone to be celibate as he was and not even marry. Since he was convinced the apocalypse was probably happening in all of their lifetimes anyways. But at the end of the day, he covered himself (on these subjects specifically) saying "But I give the charge. Not the Lord." In some of these cases, he was charting unknown territory, and I think... doing his best to give advice. The problem is that Christianity hangs on his every word since. Laws about marriage, laws that prohibit females from even speaking in church, laws that tell them they should cover their heads, etc.. This is why we still have Amish people and nuns. Because of Paul. I think he was very regressive compared to Jesus (specifically when it came to female roles). The funny thing is, these are just letters he was writing to different congregations. Who knows how much freeform thought he was employing for this medium. It's like building a religion out of someone's TypoC posts (lets hope that doesn't happen).

  8. #28
    Senior Member UniqueMixture's Avatar
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    @Jennifer: thankfully it has been awhile since I cared

    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    To be fair the first two are examples of people doing the wrong thing by giving in to passions and in the third god is trying to use the example of hosea and gomer to illustrate his faithfulness to Israel despite their frequent bouts of idol worship. None are supposed to be examples of an ideal marriage in bible standards.
    True, but interpret it from a psychological standpoint. The culture we are venerating when we... allow these myths to be spoken as truth was quite barbaric and I believe we risk replicating their outcomes.
    For all that we have done, as a civilization, as individuals, the universe is not stable, and nor is any single thing within it. Stars consume themselves, the universe itself rushes apart, and we ourselves are composed of matter in constant flux. Colonies of cells in temporary alliance, replicating and decaying and housed within, an incandescent cloud of electrical impulses. This is reality, this is self knowledge, and the perception of it will, of course, make you dizzy.

  9. #29
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    Paul said a lot of odd things about sex. Like he wanted everyone to be celibate as he was and not even marry. Since he was convinced the apocalypse was probably happening in all of their lifetimes anyways. But at the end of the day, he covered himself (on these subjects specifically) saying "But I give the charge. Not the Lord." In some of these cases, he was charting unknown territory, and I think... doing his best to give advice.
    I agree with that. he was trying to resolve all the typical issues that pop up in a new community setting where people have still carried their old values and old baggage into the new sitting, there's a body of an old ingrained culture trying to do things their way with an influx of new blood (the gentiles joining the church comprised in some locations of Jews), etc. He was going around and trying to make everything mesh up so that the communities could settle out rather than imploding.

    The problem is that Christianity hangs on his every word since. Laws about marriage, laws that prohibit females from even speaking in church, laws that tell them they should cover their heads, etc..
    Yup. Instead of realizing he was just making things work, using his brain and his knowledge of the Law, to make the smoothest kind of transition possible, people try to read him as if he were giving literal commands that apply universally... the rulebook approach. It just really makes no sense. And I will credit Paul, too, with specifically trying to say what things he thought were coming from God and the faith vs what things were just his and the best answers he personally could come up with. But anyway....


    This is why we still have Amish people and nuns. Because of Paul. I think he was very regressive compared to Jesus (specifically when it came to female roles).
    Well... jesus lucked out (aside from that crucifixion thing) -- he basically ended up jumpstarting the thing, but he didn't have to organize the structure, codify the rules, establish the procedures, etc., for the community he had created. Paul -- who actually started out as kind of a zealot and dogmatic -- had to learn to be more diplomatic and just do his best to help everyone live in peace. So we see him trying to keep the church from being too radical about some things and not getting caught up in political struggles... hence issues like slavery, where he's not trying to stir up a rebellion but instead focusing on the relationship between people and having them reflect God regardless of their station in life; or the issue with women, trying to form a smooth bridge between the culture and the church so that again the road might be smoothed for the gospel to have in-roads into the culture. I guess it depends on your individual outlook as to whether you see that as diplomatic and wise, or compromising in some way.

    Jesus did definitely treat women with respect and as equal human beings; while there are none numbered among the "12 disciplines," he seems to have been emotionally intimate with a number and they were the first ones to find him after the Resurrection. Even women in the early church typically did better than the culture, I think, and there seems to have been a few female elders.

    The funny thing is, these are just letters he was writing to different congregations. Who knows how much freeform thought he was employing for this medium. It's like building a religion out of someone's TypoC posts (lets hope that doesn't happen).
    Sounds like a weird analogy, but it's not really that false of one. Basically, that is what was kind of happening.... imo.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #30
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    To be fair the first two are examples of people doing the wrong thing by giving in to passions and in the third god is trying to use the example of hosea and gomer to illustrate his faithfulness to Israel despite their frequent bouts of idol worship. None are supposed to be examples of an ideal marriage in bible standards.
    The Bible is full of examples of people doing the completely wrong and destructive thing. The OT especially reads more like a manual of what not to do to be a good person. I have heard unfortunately many sermons, though, that try to put a positive spin on situations like the man who let his daughter be abused by an angry mob to spare a visitor. In an odd way, it reminds me of that book that comes up in Chronicles of Narnia called "How to serve man".
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

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