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  1. #21
    likes this gromit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen View Post
    Are they?
    Different bodies, different social roles which result in developing differently. But that is descriptive of how things are. That doesn't mean it's a good thing to put people into boxes.
    Your kisses, sweeter than honey. But guess what, so is my money.

  2. #22

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    I would prefer if we stopped measuring people, and just let them be.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
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  3. #23
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Pussy Riot and Good Women

    "Pussy Riot", the punk band protesting Putin and the Russian oligarchy are examples of good women.

    But notice, the moment they put their heads above the parapet, they were thrown in jail, and charged with serious crime, meriting a jail term of seven years.

  4. #24

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    A vagina?

    I would presume anyone with one would make a pretty good woman.

  5. #25

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    It is all too much to decide. There are physical measures like facial symmetry and body proportion percentages. Then there are cognitive traits I could measure like dominance/submissiveness, then I could measure cooking skills and so forth. That is a lot of thinking, I think I will play it by ear.

  6. #26
    Senior Member Wolfie's Avatar
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    Question = blech.
    ( . )( . )

  7. #27
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen View Post
    Listen folks--I'm not actually saying that there is no observable difference between women and men. I am, however, saying that much of that so-called observable difference is socialized, and much of that so-called observable difference is a PRODUCT OF THIS KIND OF CONVERSATION in which "ideal men" and "ideal women" are neatly outlined and imagined and propagated, and that much of that so-called observable difference is harmful to people who simply do not fit in those neat categories.

    Therefore, "the measure of a good woman" and "the measure of a good man," while perhaps it might be an interesting enough forum conversation--and by god, have your interesting forum conversation--have the potential to be oppressive social constructs that keep women feeling like they are somehow defective if they don't want to pop out babies and nurture them into adulthood (or insert other "ideal woman" notion) or keep men feeling like they are somehow defective if they don't want to provide for a wife and family (or insert other "ideal male" notion).
    Wha u say? But men has penis and woman has boobs for to feed bebes.
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  8. #28
    Senior Member Eileen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by funkadelik View Post
    A vagina?

    I would presume anyone with one would make a pretty good woman.
    It seems that simple, but it's not. I've known a few good women who weren't born with the parts. And I've known a few women who presumably possess the vag and who are just pretty terrible people (so I'm going to go with "terrible woman" as I'm stubborn about the question).
    INFJ

    "I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. You can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be. This is the interrelated structure of reality." -Martin Luther King, Jr.

  9. #29
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    I'm not entirely sure, but I'm pretty sure Lark asked this to contrast the common, and more acceptable question.. 'what is the measure of a man', 'what makes a man', or 'what are the traits of a real man' as an act to see what it's like when the tables are turned. It's an interesting exercise, but I don't like the man question, so I equally don't like the woman question.

  10. #30
    Starcrossed Seafarer Aquarelle's Avatar
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    I'll take a crack at this...

    I think, of course, most of the same things that make a good man also make a good woman.... strength of character, kindness, responsibility, honesty, work ethic. But I think, because of some of the things discussed above, additionally a good woman will have the self-awareness to look beyond society's expectations of womanhood and know what matters to HER, as well as the strength and conviction to be true to herself, and not bow to societal pressure.

    Of course that last can apply to a man as well, but I think women do have more societal pressure to conform to the the stereotypical image of woman... if a woman doesn't want to get married or raise children, or maybe she wants to adopt rather than give birth, people assume there's something wrong with her, or that she really does want those things, but pretends not to because she can't get them. If a man doesn't want those things, nobody finds anything strange about it.
    Masquerading as a normal person day after day is exhausting.

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