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  1. #11
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    86-60-86 [in metric].
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  2. #12
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen View Post
    That's why I'm annoyed--I don't think that it is, or should be, different. I'm not annoyed at YOU; I'm annoyed at the question. You certainly have a right to ask it, as I have a right to be annoyed that this is a question that gets asked as often as it does.



    I don't think it's weird. I think it's depressingly ordinary. I think it is, in many ways, our unspoken default. And that's why the question annoys me: because there's actually a fairly predictable answer when I don't think there ought to be (and it's one that sure, someone can live out in a happy, if unexamined, way).
    I know you arent annoyed with me, although I think that men and women can be equal but this doesn not imply sameness nor homogenuity, I think that pursuit of sameness is only going to make both men and women miserable.

  3. #13
    Senior Member Eileen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I know you arent annoyed with me, although I think that men and women can be equal but this doesn not imply sameness nor homogenuity, I think that pursuit of sameness is only going to make both men and women miserable.
    The pursuit of sameness in each category will also make men and women miserable (for example: not every woman is particularly maternal, and there is nothing wrong with that, but a woman's ability to mother is often cited as part of the ideal). Perhaps the question of ideals is problematic no matter how you phrase it and no matter what parameters you draw around it.
    INFJ

    "I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. You can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be. This is the interrelated structure of reality." -Martin Luther King, Jr.

  4. #14
    Was E.laur Laurie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen View Post
    Oh you know. Submissive to her man. Feels flattered when complimented by strangers. Is smart but not smarter, keeps house well, and can manage to balance chasteness and sluttiness in exactly the right proportions to satisfy her husband. Wide birthing hips and an affinity for young-raising.
    I got the last part! Woo!

    I don't see anything offensive about the op. (some people will be offended that it's lark that posted it). It's even posted so it's entirely subjective like this type of subject is.

  5. #15
    Senior Member Eileen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laurie View Post
    I got the last part! Woo!

    I don't see anything offensive about the op. (some people will be offended that it's lark that posted it). It's even posted so it's entirely subjective like this type of subject is.
    I'm not offended, I'm annoyed. It's not posted to be "entirely subjective" because it makes at least the very basic assumption that there is (or should be) a difference between ideal men and women. I don't even have it in me to be anything other than irritated at it, and I'd be annoyed if anyone posted it, not just Lark.
    INFJ

    "I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. You can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be. This is the interrelated structure of reality." -Martin Luther King, Jr.

  6. #16
    Was E.laur Laurie's Avatar
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    Why wouldn't there be a subjective difference between men and women? They are different.

  7. #17
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen View Post
    I'm not offended, I'm annoyed. It's not posted to be "entirely subjective" because it makes at least the very basic assumption that there is (or should be) a difference between ideal men and women. I don't even have it in me to be anything other than irritated at it, and I'd be annoyed if anyone posted it, not just Lark.
    Guys to be honest the whole people being offended that I'm still breathing and walking around and havent been struck by lightening because I'm never going to conform to the thought police has been done, it says more about them than me.

    Now, the differences, well, I'd begin by saying that there are individual differences between anyone, purely by virtue of our uniqueness, we're tall, short, blue eyed, brown eyed etc. etc. and by virtue of those things among others we are different, behave differently, may experience different needs, wants, hopes, dreams.

    Now one of those traits that's fairly significant is sex, having a vagina or penis isnt no big deal, its a really big deal, honestly the whole we're all equal and that means we're all the same sort of makes sense as a precursor to some of the normative sanction of same sex unions but you cant wish that sort of difference away. It is.

    I dont believe that its got anything to do with submissiveness or domination or capacity for deference to others or anything of that kind. However there are major differences, I'll be honest that while I have experienced paternalistic feelings towards children I experience NOTHING like the maternalistic drives which my married friends have described their wives experiencing or which I've observed in female friends, I mean real serious attempts to get pregnant by hook or by crook, even when it rationally and logically threatens everything else and will spell struggle for them all, including the children as they grow up. That is not something as a male I honestly believe I have or would experience, I know proud and happy fathers who have talked about how they really would have prefered that they could have waited, not much in the way of submission or deference there.

    The crazy thing about this is that I've known superficially liberal and feminist affiliated women to assent to this equality as sameness view and become miserable, seriously, then maybe they'll read some radical feminists who argue in favour of difference, sometimes extraordinarily so in terms of anti-male progroms or seperatism (pretty hurt and traumatised individuals there if you ask me), and then they're happy. I've always liked the company of women who're more inclined to live after their own fashion, I dont even mean as a woman but as an individual woman, who're inclined to say these people are meant to be about my liberation, they think they are all about what I'm about but they arent and criticise them without losing sight of the fact that they mean well.

  8. #18
    Senior Member Eileen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laurie View Post
    Why wouldn't there be a subjective difference between men and women? They are different.
    Are they?
    INFJ

    "I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. You can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be. This is the interrelated structure of reality." -Martin Luther King, Jr.

  9. #19
    Senior Member Eileen's Avatar
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    Listen folks--I'm not actually saying that there is no observable difference between women and men. I am, however, saying that much of that so-called observable difference is socialized, and much of that so-called observable difference is a PRODUCT OF THIS KIND OF CONVERSATION in which "ideal men" and "ideal women" are neatly outlined and imagined and propagated, and that much of that so-called observable difference is harmful to people who simply do not fit in those neat categories.

    Therefore, "the measure of a good woman" and "the measure of a good man," while perhaps it might be an interesting enough forum conversation--and by god, have your interesting forum conversation--have the potential to be oppressive social constructs that keep women feeling like they are somehow defective if they don't want to pop out babies and nurture them into adulthood (or insert other "ideal woman" notion) or keep men feeling like they are somehow defective if they don't want to provide for a wife and family (or insert other "ideal male" notion).
    INFJ

    "I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. You can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be. This is the interrelated structure of reality." -Martin Luther King, Jr.

  10. #20
    likes this gromit's Avatar
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    Strong and gentle. That is an ideal woman. Similarly, I would say that is an ideal man too. Some people lean toward one more than the other, and then it's sort of your task in life to develop or become in touch with that other side. And everyone has their own flavor of "strong" and "gentle" too.

    So that's what I think
    Your kisses, sweeter than honey. But guess what, so is my money.

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