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  1. #31
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post
    You have every right to value *your* family. But you have *no* right to assume that others should value *theirs*.

    *Many* people come from incredibly messed up families. Parents can, and have often sadly imposed a "community of hell" upon their children.

    Please, let the people value what's inherently valuable to them.
    Um...that is why I specifically said, "I can tell you why I value families...".

    You haven't answered my question CC. Why are you so opposed to teaching the values of family, cooperation, altruism, etc. in schools but you aren't opposed to the teaching of liberty, freedom, opportunity, etc. Do you think the poor have as much liberty as the rich in this country? Why do you feel comfortable imposing one set of values, but not the other?
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
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  2. #32
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Um...CC...we already have secular education.
    Um...Kiddo...that we do. And for a particular reason, I believe. I think it has something to do with that separation of church and state, thingy-dingy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    The only difference is that the communitarians also want to teach about the importance of family, community, cooperation, etc.
    Lol, "also want to teach", i.e. "implement the indoctrination of *their* subjectively derived/defined set of values, as prescriptive norms of behavior, belief and "truth" within the public school curriculum "

    Hmm, I'm sensing some major religious connotations/motivations here..

    And by golly, I think I may be right...

    Healthy families and churches and neighborhood communities and like institutions are the key to shaping the conduct of children in such a way that they will become productive adults.

    For this reason, communitarians generally support a creative division of labor, which permits the state to channel resources to community organizations, including faith-based organizations, for the provision of services within a community. Community-based organizations, including church organizations, have a comparative advantage in dealing "close-up" with community members.
    Excerpt taken from Institute for Communitarian Policy Studies - Faith Based Social Services
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  3. #33
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Kiddo and CaptainChick:

    Take it down a notch or get out of the thread.


  4. #34
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    I understand. So if any philosophy takes up a humanitarian/community oriented outlook then it's automatically religious. Especially if it even suggests supporting faith based organizations. Whereas classical liberal values, which were derived from the idea of "creator endowed" natural rights, do not fall under that category. And the fact that libertarian values surmise freedom of religious expression in schools doesn't hurt either.

    That is exactly why I think every political philosophy is coercive one way or another. The only difference is people are obviously not aware of how their values are being imposed on others, but they certainly don't want other's values to be imposed.

    I'm finding politics to be more and more sickening everyday.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
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  5. #35
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    Wonderful thread. I consider myself a communitarian. There's also the related concept of Personalism, which I also adhere to.

    Communitarianism is based upon the old Aristotle saying that man is a social animal. Whether we like it or not, we are forged by our relationship and interactions with other people. If it were not so, then society as we know it would not exist, much less even operate.

    Comparing Communitarianism to Fascism is an asinine knee-jerk. It is true that the Fascists/Nazis borrowed certain terms and concept from Communitarianism, in actual fact they completely perverted them from their original contexts.

    It should also be noted that many of the intellectual founders of Communitatrianism were very much opposed to the Fascist/Nazi regimes. This is especially true with Ferdinand Tönnies, whose study on the contrasts between "Community"(Gemeinschaft) and "Civil Society"(Gesellschaft) forged much of the foundation for this concept.

    If we actually take Tönnies' argument as a basis for judging the Nazi/Fascist regimes; we can safely conclude that they were based upon a nationalistic-racialist form of Gesellschaft as opposed to Gemeinschaft; since the latter tends towards small-scale autonomous social entities, while the former tends towards large-scale mass-organized social entities.

    Social cohesion in Gemeinschaft is based upon mores and customs; wheras in Gesellschaft it's based upon arbitrary legal means.

    That's actually the irony I find of most peoples' critiques of Communitarism. They decry it for supposedly suppressing individual rights, when in fact it actually gurantees them(not to mention our concepts of individual rights were forged within Communitarian contexts to begin with. Outside of such contexts, individual rights have little if any meaning).

    Otherwise with Gesellschaft you have a random assortment of people who come together now and then for self-serving purposes - and the only way one can make them get along is through legal means.

    Alexis de Tocqueveille noted this back in the 1840s in Democracy in America, that the survival of freedom depends upon a strong sense of community. Otherwise, as community spirits declines, the more the government has to step in to replace its role. Social cohesion in such situations is dependent upon the use of common abstractions; wheras communitarianism depends upon concrete concepts. Communities are an important block on the rise of centralized governmental power, upon which individual rights depend for vital existence.

    The French Anarchst Pierre-Joseph Proudhon put it wonderfully like this:
    "Solicit men's view in the mass, and they will return stupid, fickle and violent answers; solicit their views as members of definite groups with real solidarity and a distinctive character, and their answers will be responsible and wise. Expose them to the political 'language' of mass democracy, which represents 'the people' as unitary and undivided and minorities as traitors, and they will give birth to tyranny; expose them to the political language of federalism, in which the people figures as a diversified aggregate of real associations, and they will resist tyranny to the end."
    Anyways....I'm getting slightly off topic here.

    Another leading founder of modern Communitarianism, Martin Buber, also had many of his writings used by the Nazis to serve their ideological needs, despite the fact that Buber was Jewish.

    I'll have to add more later.

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