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  1. #11
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Communitarians tend to favor policies designed to protect and promote ties to the family and family-like groups. This would include such measures as encouraging marriage and increasing the difficulty of legal marriage dissolution. These policies are supported by empirical evidence that points to the psychological and social benefits of marriage (Waite 1996). Communitarians also favor political legislation that can help to restructure education in such a way that peoples deepest needs in membership and participation in psychological communities are tapped at a young age. The primary school system in Japan, where students learn about group cooperation and benefits and rewards are assigned to the classroom as a whole rather than to individual students, could be a useful model (Reid 1999).


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  2. #12
    Senior Member htb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    HTB: It seems like you want to impose some kind of unfair idea where people are completely beholden to all of other people's expectations with no opportunity for appeal or a way to get outside them, and no guarantee that the rules or punishments be spelled out. I don't like that very much. If someone has an expectation, I want to have the right to confront it, know exactly what it is, and what I'll lose if I violate it, and then have the opportunity to do so if I still wish to, and whether I really need to do so.
    I certainly don't support communitarianism. However, social restriction can be effected by only two agents: private individuals and entities, and the state. Because evidence confutes the idea that behavior of one does not (or even cannot) affect others, individuals will inevitably turn to a regulatory agent to proscribe that which they dislike. I for one would prefer enforcement that is merely social, not legal. Your concern at being "beholden to people's expectations" I find vague and lost in theory. Who are these people? Are they going to put you in jail? Take your property? And even if a certain community punishes violations, we're not talking about 200 aboriginals on a tiny island; life as it is provides thousands of subcultures in the United States alone. Pick one and act according to most of its rules -- you do already.

  3. #13
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post


    No thanks.
    But...we do much of that already. Marriage is already encouraged via tax and insurance benefits. And for good reason since it's shown that those who are married live longer and happier lives. And some states have made it harder to get a divorce. I believe you have to wait at least one year in Virginia.

    And elementary schools across the country have been restructured to follow foreign models, particularly the Japanese model because of how much more effective those schools are.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Nocturne: It seems from what you said as if you agree with what I said, but I'm not sure. Do you?

    HTB: It seems like you want to impose some kind of unfair idea where people are completely beholden to all of other people's expectations with no opportunity for appeal or a way to get outside them, and no guarantee that the rules or punishments be spelled out. I don't like that very much. If someone has an expectation, I want to have the right to confront it, know exactly what it is, and what I'll lose if I violate it, and then have the opportunitity to do so if I still wish to, and whether I really need to do so.
    Yes, I was agreeing with you
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  5. #15
    Senior Member reason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    In fact, reading nocturne's post just makes me think he is a hardcore liberal.
    Yes, I like my liberalism as I like my pornography... hardcore and with a Cadbury's cream egg. It is just so much better that way. Try it sometime. MMMmmm...

    I like liberalism as much as the next guy, since the respect of liberty is the difference between civility and barbarity. If society is to stray from the ideal of liberty, let us pray that it does not stray too far, eh? The policies advocated under the banner of communitarianism are fascist, a thinly veiled rehash of the ideas of Mussolini, and presented with many soothing words intended to seduce the socialist and conservative in us all, an appeal to the intolerant occupants of both ends of the political "spectrum".

    Let us do a little experiment,

    The Christian Right emerged in the 1980s as a response to the limits of liberal theory and practice. Its dominant themes are that individual rights need to be balanced with social responsibilities. The Christian Right argue that the one-sided emphasis on rights in liberalism is related to its conception of the individual as a "disembodied self," uprooted from cultural meanings, community attachments, and the life stories that constitute the full identities of real human beings. The Christian Right tend to favor policies designed to protect and promote ties to the family and family-like groups. This would include such measures as encouraging marriage and increasing the difficulty of legal marriage dissolution. The Christian Right also favor political legislation that can help to restructure education in such a way that peoples deepest needs in membership and participation in psychological communities are tapped at a young age.

    It doesn't take a village *cough* Hillary Clinton *cough* to see the similarities. It seems that these days its hard to know where you'll find fascists lurking, on the right on the left, running for the Democrat nomination, currently occupying the White House, etc. Scary stuff. That said, perhaps we shouldn't be surprised. The apparent conflict between socialism and fascism is not ideological, both advocate very similar policies and ideals, and for a long time socialists in the US would sing the praises of the likes of Mussolini, not unlike they did for Lenin and Stalin--only much later did 'fascism' become a dirty word. No, the conflict arises because socialism and fascism compete in the same marketplace, and appeal to people of the same mind and mentality. In other words, that McDonalds is most fiercely competitive with Burger King is not for their differences but because of their similarity.

    On that note:

    "To the great apostles of political freedom the word had meant freedom from coercion, freedom from the arbitrary power of other men, release from the ties which left the individual no choice but obedience to the orders of a superior to whom he was attached. The new freedom, however, was to be freedom from necessity, release from the compulsion of the circumstances which inevitably limit the range of choice of all of us, although for some very much more than for others. Before man could truly be free, the 'despotism of physical want' had to be broken, the 'restraints of the economic system' relaxed." - Friedrich August von Hayek, The Road to Serfdom
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  6. #16
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    I don't really see the similarities. For one, the Christian Right didn't emerge in the 1980's. They don't embody individual rights in accordance with social responsiblity. From what I have seen, most of the Christian right embrace liberalism. Honestly, just plugging "Christian Right" in place of Communitarianism is not a good argument. In fact, it verges on a logical fallacy.

    It seems to me you are just inserting your own value judgments and assumptions rather than attacking the actual philosophy. That might work for some of the yahoos on this forum, but it's the classic NTJ tactic of retortion which doesn't fool me. (See NTJ tactics thread)

    There is merit in this philosophy which is very evident because we are utilizing some of these ideas in the here and now. The community is essential in the development of human beings. For example...
    Infants that are not held will die.
    Feral children have shown the extraordinary importance of socialization in learning and development.
    Language is one of the first things children acquire and it is absolutely necessary for learning pretty much everything.

    It is undeniable that the community shapes individuals. Without it we would be little more than mindless beasts scavenging to stay alive. Teaching people the importance of cooperation, community, and family is necessary for the next generation of individuals.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  7. #17
    Senior Member reason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    It seems to me you are just inserting your own value judgments and assumptions rather than attacking the actual philosophy. That might work for some of the yahoos on this forum, but it's the classic NTJ tactic of retortion which doesn't fool me. (See NTJ tactics thread).
    Okay, I admit it, you've seen right through me! I can't fool you it seems.

    There is merit in this philosophy which is very evident because we are utilizing some of these ideas in the here and now. The community is essential in the development of human beings. For example... Infants that are not held will die. Feral children have shown the extraordinary importance of socialization in learning and development. Language is one of the first things children acquire and it is absolutely necessary for learning pretty much everything. It is undeniable that the community shapes individuals. Without it we would be little more than mindless beasts scavenging to stay alive. Teaching people the importance of cooperation, community, and family is necessary for the next generation of individuals.
    Oh, I see... and here I was, thinking that cooperation, community, learning, and family were bad, horrible, illiberal, ideas promoted by socialists and fascists, and that child mortality rates could do with being a little higher, you know, because that would be more individualistic or something. In fact, I am beginning to think that social activity of any kind is morally wrong and unacceptable.
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  8. #18
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Where exactly in this philosophy does it say that no one is allowed to leave the community? Where does it say that it forces people to participate in the community? Perhaps, I am mistaken, but those are the ideas that both you and Athenian have interjected into this philosophy, so where exactly does it suggest that?
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  9. #19
    Senior Member reason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Where exactly in this philosophy does it say that no one is allowed to leave the community? Where does it say that it forces people to participate in the community? Perhaps, I am mistaken, but those are the ideas that both you and Athenian have interjected into this philosophy, so where exactly does it suggest that?
    I am sorry, you're right, communitarianism is just liberalism by another name. Oh, wait, that's not right...
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  10. #20
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    htb: Thanks for clarifying, I think what you're saying makes sense. I just misinterpreted it at first as meaning that people's expectations should be considered to be as valid as laws, and that real laws weren't necessary.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    There is merit in this philosophy which is very evident because we are utilizing some of these ideas in the here and now. The community is essential in the development of human beings. For example...
    Infants that are not held will die.
    Feral children have shown the extraordinary importance of socialization in learning and development.
    Language is one of the first things children acquire and it is absolutely necessary for learning pretty much everything.

    It is undeniable that the community shapes individuals. Without it we would be little more than mindless beasts scavenging to stay alive. Teaching people the importance of cooperation, community, and family is necessary for the next generation of individuals.
    No one is arguing about that, Kiddo. No one here ever said that community or society was unneccessary and had no purpose. You're putting words in our mouths, and misrepresenting our arguments. What we are arguing about here is whether people should be forced to be part of a community and adopt it's values without any exposure to alternative choices. What I am saying is that taking away individual choice and pushing people towards accepting the values of their community, regardless of their own convictions isn't healthy. In fact, I would venture to say that communities based on people who understand and choose to be a part of them are more suited to their member's well-being. I think it's important for people to be able to choose whom they associate with and whom they do not. Who you are willing to associate with is an integral part of your identity and values. That's why each person should be given a choice about who they associate with, rather than having it mandated to them what they should value and whom they should associate with. I respect you enough to assume that you understand the value of this.

    Children, the handicapped, and the insane are a different matter than reasonable adults. Since they cannot yet understand anything well enough to choose anything in any reasonable capacity, then they have to be protected by others. What I am arguing is that it is detrimental to the well-being of people in the long-term to teach them only how to follow other people's expectations, and not how to examine them or make good choices themselves.

    I'm not saying that people don't need other people. I'm saying that people should have a choice of how involved they are. One level could be just paying taxes, working, not breaking the law, and purchasing services for money. Then at the next level, you could have volunteering or involvement in large groups or campaigns. Basically, I believe that people have a natural right to seek out like-minded individuals rather than being compelled to adopt the values of people they can't relate to against their will.

    Perhaps I don't actually understand what you're talking about, because I only read the part quoted by Proteanmix, and the subsequent arguments, rather than the actual page.

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