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View Poll Results: Is the source or the argument more important to discerning the truth?

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  • The source is paramount.

    1 2.78%
  • The source is a bit more important than the argument.

    2 5.56%
  • The source and the argument are equally important.

    10 27.78%
  • The argument is more important than the source.

    14 38.89%
  • The argument is paramount.

    9 25.00%
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Results 71 to 80 of 96

  1. #71
    Society
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    ofcourse the argument, an ad hominem is an instinctive fallacy but it is still a fallacy.

    a person can have little to no credibility to me, and yet say something whose logic i find flawless, and vise versa, i can be extremely biased towards someone, and still find what they have to say lacking the legitimacy of rationality.

    i have to say i am positively surprised by the number of NFs answering here in adhering to the argument over the source. i always thought that the stereotypical line of thought (which i'v encountered too many times) of "if you would respect me you would agree" was basically a result of projecting a bias towards the source over the argument (thus assuming if i truly loved/respected/cared for them i should be more biased towards their logic). to me that always seems like an intellectual insecurity, as in, a lack in trust in yourself and your own capacity to examine an argument rationally, thus falling back on your trust in your capacity to examine other people's reliability.

  2. #72
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireShield98 View Post
    A stupid person can come up with a brilliant idea. A brilliant person can come up with a stupid idea. It's best to judge for yourself with your own mind whether the argument makes sense or not, regardless of where it comes from.
    Spoken like a true INTJ.
    “If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.” ― Oscar Wilde

    "I'm outtie 5000" ― Romulux

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  3. #73
    WALMART
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    Consider the argument.

    Even a million monkeys banging on the keys of a million pianos...

  4. #74

    Default

    You know, this has gotten more interest than I would have expected. To me, pathos can be part of source or argument. In ethical arguments, emotions are important. They play the role of the senses. But you can have an emotional response to particular sources.

    I believe the argument is very important. But if people are supposedly "fact-checking", it should be made as easy as possible for the person considering these checked "facts" to go through exactly the same process.

    Facts don't speak for themselves. Everyone is biased, everyone is collecting facts to either test or support their own ideas. Since this collection process is being driven from an internal drive, it is difficult to know whether they are collecting facts to support a conclusion or collecting facts to test an assumption.

    Consider two "fact-checking" websites (both of which I consider very biased):
    http://factcheck.org/ (left leaning)
    http://www.justfacts.com/index.asp (right leaning)

    Both, say they exclude facts that are missing the "context" they believe is relevant, while including facts that they believe have the appropriate context.

    You can tell a lot from what they exclude vs. what they include and under what topics facts are included. They are trying to spin you with the "facts" that are presented.

    Note, however, that just because these sources are biased, doesn't mean that the facts themselves are "wrong." In fact, I find them both good sources of food for thought, and provide me with a deeper understanding of how misinformation works.

    EDIT: Despite all the things mentioned above, I believe the argument is more important than the source of the one creating the argument. Ideally, the source would provide enough details for me to observe the very same things they did. From this, I would form my opinions. But usually, it is prohibitively expensive (either in time or money) to recreate careful studies.
    Last edited by ygolo; 07-30-2012 at 06:57 PM. Reason: Clarification

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
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    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
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  5. #75
    Freaking Ratchet Rail Tracer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    Nah I wouldnt say that. All depends on your "skills"
    Do you know that 87% of people believe that you don't need good sources?

    But that only 39% of people follow through?

    No, not really. That is how easy it is to create an argument out of thin-air without good (or any) sources.

  6. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rail Tracer View Post
    Do you know that 87% of people believe that you don't need good sources?

    But that only 39% of people follow through?
    lol. 75% of all statistics are made up on the spot. Including the ones in your posted quote and this one.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  7. #77
    Freaking Ratchet Rail Tracer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    lol. 75% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
    I just forgot to include my sources.

    I forgot to mention the Data for Social Studies, an independent group that tracks human social behavior, did the study which was what I posted. They've given users in their studies questionnaires like this and found that those 87% of people believed they didn't need good sources and that what they say is more important than the source that it is coming from.

    Likewise, while 87% of the respondents said that they didn't need good sources, only 37% of those respondents actually followed through with what they said. This shows that even though 87% of people responded that their arguments were more important than their sources, a low majority actually truly believe that.

    Lol. But really, it depends on audience I suppose. What was the word again? I think it was the rhetorical situation that includes the whole lot of what we are talking here. In this situation and on this site, the sources don't need to be as abundant because the site is more relaxed. But to create an argument for an essay with none/little sources is a recipe for an F. Likewise, an argument without any sources is just yelling with no sympathy for persuading my thoughts. In more formal settings, I do try to add more sources because it adds to the credibility of what I am writing. In that same manner, people can fake the sources and some people might actually chew it up. A lot of sources with little argument doesn't help either, you are just basically throwing information at someone and telling them to read.

  8. #78

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rail Tracer View Post
    I just forgot to include my sources.

    I forgot to mention the Data for Social Studies, an independent group that tracks human social behavior, did the study which was what I posted. They've given users in their studies questionnaires like this and found that those 87% of people believed they didn't need good sources and that what they say is more important than the source that it is coming from.

    Likewise, while 87% of the respondents said that they didn't need good sources, only 37% of those respondents actually followed through with what they said. This shows that even though 87% of people responded that their arguments were more important than their sources, a low majority actually truly believe that.
    Yeah, making up sources is the next level of mis-infomation. Some take it even further and then fund whole organizations for generating "facts" that support the conclusions they want.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  9. #79
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rail Tracer View Post
    Do you know that 87% of people believe that you don't need good sources?

    But that only 39% of people follow through?

    No, not really. That is how easy it is to create an argument out of thin-air without good (or any) sources.
    What would that tell me ?

    P.S.: that was an evil trick
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  10. #80
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    in honesty, i would get lost on the argument..even if the devil was the one arguing the case, thats really where the devil is at, in the details.

    i think someone who has issues discerning may be more inclined to look at the person.
    "I'm not in this world to live up to your expectations and you're not in this world to live up to mine. "
    -Bruce Lee

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