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  1. #21

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    I don't think the literal biblical God requires, is required for, or created the morality we sense with our consciences (though I leave open the possibility that God, even a biblical God created our consciences). By your definitions that would make me someone who subscribes to "objective morality", but I don't believe it is necessarily objective either (though it could be).

    We have consciences, whatever combination of nature or nurture imbues this in us. I see this as a faculty, like our reason or vision. I believe we use these faculties to judge morality. We can makes mistakes, we can do things that go against our consciences. But using our consciences is not the same as "doing whatever we feel like".

    We also know that vengeance, and selfishness would not be seen as good by many who make use of conscience (Evil, in fact, by many people of conscience).

    I heard a good question a while back: "Why do piranhas not eat each other during a feeding frenzy?" What moral code are they following? What makes wild, seemingly ferocious, animals take care of their young, and cooperate to find food? Are they referring to a holy book or authority to be able to do this?

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
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    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  2. #22
    Senior Member UniqueMixture's Avatar
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    @ blank perhaps God is not dependent upon, but intertwined with, much like biological life is intertwined with metabolism.

    Also, it is interesting to view the world from a right brained perspective of perception without intertwined relationship meanings.
    For all that we have done, as a civilization, as individuals, the universe is not stable, and nor is any single thing within it. Stars consume themselves, the universe itself rushes apart, and we ourselves are composed of matter in constant flux. Colonies of cells in temporary alliance, replicating and decaying and housed within, an incandescent cloud of electrical impulses. This is reality, this is self knowledge, and the perception of it will, of course, make you dizzy.

  3. #23
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    There's other options.

    First of all, there's a difference between subjective and relative (though a thing can be both subjective and relative)
    For example, goodness might be combinatorially relative - i.e. it depends on all the factors involved, in a literal sense.

    One obvious mechanical example of how something can be relative is the boiling point of water. It is different in different scenarios - not just arbitrarily different, but actually different. Water will boil at a lower temp when it is high in a mountain as opposed to sea level.

    So, hypothetically if good does exist literally, it doesn't necessarily have to be binary or dichotomist. It can possibly have a spectrum where one thing is good given one situation, but later on may not be good given a different situation, which is how goodness can appear to be not absolute yet still exist.

  4. #24
    Junior Member dobages's Avatar
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    Omegle convo i found a while back.

    Stranger: hello
    Stranger2: HEY HEY HEY HEY
    Stranger2: F 19
    Stranger2: YOU GO
    Stranger: M 89
    Stranger2: OLD SOB
    Stranger: thousand
    Stranger: million
    Stranger2: PPL DONT USSUALLY GET PASSED THE FIRST 100 WTF IS UP WITH THAT?
    Stranger: i was blessed
    Stranger: praise the lord
    Stranger2: BY WHOM MAY I ASK
    Stranger2: GOD DOES NOT EXIST
    Stranger2:
    Stranger: im christian
    Stranger2: YOURE THAT OLD AND YOU DONT KNOW THAT!?
    Stranger2: WISDOM DOESNT COME WITH AGE I GUESS
    Stranger: theres no evidence that he doesnt exist
    Stranger2: There is no evidence that he does either.
    Stranger: wrong
    Stranger2: do explain
    Stranger: the cloth they found in a buriel site look just like jesus
    Stranger: it had his body fluids all over it
    Stranger2: How the hell would they compare a cloth to jesus if they dont know what jesus looks like to begin with?
    Stranger2: dont tell me hes a brown haired, bearded fella.
    Stranger: everyone knows what jesus looks like, dont act stupid
    Stranger2: any browned haired bearded fella could have left his cloth at some cave after whiping himself with it.
    Stranger: do you want me to give you a link? you seem awfully stubborn
    Stranger2: 1 more thing
    Stranger: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...Jerusalem.html
    Stranger2: even if the identidy of jesus was confirmed with that evidence, there is no evidence saying that he was gods son, had special powers and such except for the bible
    Stranger: and Christians believe in the bible
    Stranger: theres is no reason for me to change my thoughts because some dude on omegle said so
    Stranger2: And the bible is the last thing you could call historical evidence because of its constant contradictions.
    Stranger: you type so slow
    Stranger2: The sooner you realise that that is all bullcrap and start living your life rationally, the sooner you'll be independant of some facticious moral code that prohibits you from realising your full potencial.
    Stranger2: Moral nihilism is where its at!!:P
    Stranger2: The bible instills in its beleivers some morals that are in most cases contradictory and makes you develop a paranoid conscience that limits you
    Stranger: the sooner you realize that my religion doesnt take up 100% of my life, the sooner youl understand that christians aren't idiots
    Stranger2: MAny say they are just christians but havent got a clue what it means
    Stranger: the bible even says people will try and make you stray from the path of righteousness, so.... thats all i really need to say
    Stranger2: They havent got a clue how flawd and ridiculous thre holy book is
    Stranger: i dont care what you say
    Stranger2: Use your head, your rational thinking. With experience youll see
    Stranger: bla bla bla
    Stranger2: Be rightious ,get stepped on, where will god be? looking at you ?
    Stranger2: how old are you brah?
    Stranger: if i die i go to heaven, so it doesent really matter
    Stranger2: does that mean you would sacrifice your happiness here for something like that
    Stranger: im not saying id kill myself, then id go to hell
    Stranger2: im not saying that either
    Stranger: well it doesent really matter what your saying anyways
    Your conversational partner has disconnected.

  5. #25
    WALMART
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    god is self


    .. uh. yeah, that's all.

  6. #26
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Child Rearing Practices and Morality

    As our child rearing has improved, so our morality has improved.

    Our first form of child rearing was child sacrifice, and this created the paranoid personality among the siblings remaining.

    Then we improved on child sacrifice with the abusive form of child rearing, where, instead of child sacrifice, we blamed the child instead. And at least the child survived but with a guilty personality.

    Then we improved on the abusive form with the authoritarian form of child rearing. Where instead of abusing the child, we controlled the child. And created the controlling personality.

    And then we improved on the authoritarian with the helping form of child rearing, where the parents help the child achieve their life goals, and so creating an empathic and creative personality.

    So morality is dependent upon child rearing practices rather than God.

  7. #27
    . Blank's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    There's other options.

    First of all, there's a difference between subjective and relative (though a thing can be both subjective and relative)
    For example, goodness might be combinatorially relative - i.e. it depends on all the factors involved, in a literal sense.

    One obvious mechanical example of how something can be relative is the boiling point of water. It is different in different scenarios - not just arbitrarily different, but actually different. Water will boil at a lower temp when it is high in a mountain as opposed to sea level.

    So, hypothetically if good does exist literally, it doesn't necessarily have to be binary or dichotomist. It can possibly have a spectrum where one thing is good given one situation, but later on may not be good given a different situation, which is how goodness can appear to be not absolute yet still exist.
    That's a fair enough assessment of the concept of goodness, and I'm sure many people would agree with its sensibilities; however, one important thing to take note of is how we as humans must then interact and interpret goodness. From my basic understanding of the matter, our interpretation of what's good must come directly from God through the Ten Commandments and the Bible. As for morally grey areas, like stealing from a rich person to save a starving person, there doesn't seem to be a good way of interpreting how morally good a person is being and what the consequences of their actions should be. Does an act of greater goodness reduce the punishment of a lesser evil or should a person's hand be cut off regardless of reason?

    Even if we think killing someone in self-defense is justifiable, the Bible still says Thou Shalt Not Kill.
    Ti = 19 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Te = 16[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Ne = 16[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Fi = 15 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Si = 12 [][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Ni = 12 [][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Se = 11[][][][][][][][][][][]
    Fe = 0

    -----------------
    Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly;
    Man got to sit and wonder why, why, why;
    Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land;
    Man got to tell himself he understand

  8. #28
    Earth Exalted Thursday's Avatar
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    Good and evil are rather base concerns. Divinity is about transcending these base concerns. Not to say that you are immune to them, but that you have mastered their ambassadors inside of yourself so that you have "bigger fish to fry" and that all that you do renders a fruitful and benign result.
    I N V I C T U S

  9. #29
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thursday View Post
    Good and evil are rather base concerns. Divinity is about transcending these base concerns. Not to say that you are immune to them, but that you have mastered their ambassadors inside of yourself so that you have "bigger fish to fry" and that all that you do renders a fruitful and benign result.
    The most dangerous are those who believe they are beyond good and evil.

  10. #30
    . Blank's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thursday View Post
    Good and evil are rather base concerns.
    lol. Aren't you too sophisticated to be posting in this thread? I'm sure me, Plato, and everyone else who has philosophized about the topic of good and evil are much too low-brow for you.
    Ti = 19 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Te = 16[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Ne = 16[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Fi = 15 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Si = 12 [][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Ni = 12 [][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Se = 11[][][][][][][][][][][]
    Fe = 0

    -----------------
    Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly;
    Man got to sit and wonder why, why, why;
    Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land;
    Man got to tell himself he understand

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