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  1. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    I confess when the Berlin Wall came down in 1989, I thought socialism was over.

    Then came the book, "The Black Book of Communism", by a group of French, socialist historians telling us that Marxism took the lives of 100,000 of their own people over a period of 70 years. And I thought socialism was dead and buried.

    And in the meantime millions upon millions have been lifted out of extreme poverty by capitalism in Asia.
    So when do you think they'll write the black book of capitalism or is what they say about victors writing history true?

  2. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by UniqueMixture View Post
    Victor is an optimist. However Lark I fear you have nostalgia for days past so because the world is trending away from that you're a pessimist. Don't worry, there is still room in the future for the type of family you grew up in and love so much, it's just the way it's expressed will be slightly different.
    I'm not sure that optimism and pessimism has much to do with it.

    The reality is that Victors posts and knowledge base is ALL classical liberal, there's a great deal of almost obsessive effort going into ensuring fidelity to that thinking since its emerged as Victor's leitmotif or central plank (remember the more confused Muslim baiting and anti-feminism?).

    The problem with most of those who do this is that they really dont know about or simply dismiss the hundreds of years of criticism in theory and practice of classical liberalism that there's been, conservative, socialist and other (nationalism, ecologism, feminism, fascism). I've come to understand that its a wilful ignorance and there's not real drive or desire to know any different, as mentioning sloppy partisan "history" like the black book of communism is indicative, its a case of "dont trouble me with any sort of doubt or skepticism".

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I'm not sure that optimism and pessimism has much to do with it.

    The reality is that Victors posts and knowledge base is ALL classical liberal, there's a great deal of almost obsessive effort going into ensuring fidelity to that thinking since its emerged as Victor's leitmotif or central plank (remember the more confused Muslim baiting and anti-feminism?).

    The problem with most of those who do this is that they really dont know about or simply dismiss the hundreds of years of criticism in theory and practice of classical liberalism that there's been, conservative, socialist and other (nationalism, ecologism, feminism, fascism). I've come to understand that its a wilful ignorance and there's not real drive or desire to know any different, as mentioning sloppy partisan "history" like the black book of communism is indicative, its a case of "dont trouble me with any sort of doubt or skepticism".
    The proof of the pudding is in the eating and liberal democracy has delivered the abolition of institutional slavery for the first time in history, and the emancipation of women and the prosecution of child sexual abuse.

    These are the runs on the board and we are still at the crease.

    You ask about economics, well for the first time in human history scarcity has been overcome in the West and developed countries. And many millions have been lifted from absolute poverty in Asia.

    Science, technology and modern medicine flourish.

    And all liberal democratic countries have signed the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

    And to boot, the incidence of war is diminishing year by year.

    And good God, Lark, the Queen has apologised to the Irish.

  4. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    The proof of the pudding is in the eating and liberal democracy has delivered the abolition of institutional slavery for the first time in history, and the emancipation of women and the prosecution of child sexual abuse.
    You think that's down to liberal democracy?

    These are the runs on the board and we are still at the crease.

    You ask about economics, well for the first time in human history scarcity has been overcome in the West and developed countries. And many millions have been lifted from absolute poverty in Asia.

    Science, technology and modern medicine flourish.

    And all liberal democratic countries have signed the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

    And to boot, the incidence of war is diminishing year by year.

    And good God, Lark, the Queen has apologised to the Irish.
    Good God?

    Anyway, Victor the economies which have prospered in the third world or Asia have been the economies which have, for ideological reasons, convictions or historical legacies, been able to refuse to adopt classical or neo-liberl economics wholesale and instead have cherry picked what to adopt and what to dispense with.

    Asia's success is attributable to merchantilism and the governing elite's willingness to play the long game economically rather than to seek short term gains or wins at the expense of the country or their people like those nations in Africa whose leaders where sold a pup by the Bretton Woods system or used their status to take massive loans, move them into off shore accounts and flee the country.

    I've heard some seriously daft things in my time and seen some scamming but to just choose every single thing you think is good in life and tie it all into a single political creedo is nye on ridiculous, you're bound to see yourself just how much that resembles the proselytising preacher or born again believer that you're so fond of attacking?

  5. #15
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    The proof of the pudding is in the eating and liberal democracy has delivered the abolition of institutional slavery for the first time in history, and the emancipation of women and the prosecution of child sexual abuse.

    These are the runs on the board and we are still at the crease.

    You ask about economics, well for the first time in human history scarcity has been overcome in the West and developed countries. And many millions have been lifted from absolute poverty in Asia.

    Science, technology and modern medicine flourish.

    And all liberal democratic countries have signed the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

    And to boot, the incidence of war is diminishing year by year.

    And good God, Lark, the Queen has apologised to the Irish.
    We might progress a little if we accept that as just the past.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    but to just choose every single thing you think is good in life and tie it all into a single political creedo is nye on ridiculous?
    Well, feel free to criticize my ideas. You are well read and well motivated and I may well be wrong.

  7. #17
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    The Limitation of Power Victor.

    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ginkgo View Post
    We might progress a little if we accept that as just the past.
    The abolition of poverty in Asia is happening right now and Oz is in the thick of it.

    The Universal Declaration of Human Rights is now in contention with 57 members of the United Nations rejecting the Declaration.

    In the Eastern hemisphere we are progressing at enormous speed.

    So naturally I am trying to bring you up to speed.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    The Limitation of Power Victor.

    Always the cheap and low personal attack masquerading as humour.

  10. #20
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Always the cheap and low personal attack masquerading as humour.
    Cant it be both? I find it funny and you seem to find it insulting.

    Regardless I am surprised you took it personally. I could easily say : Always the cheap and low tactic of excusing a lack of self deprecation using overt seriousness.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

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