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  1. #41
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sexist View Post
    I tryed to determin my oponion on this but I just cant seem to. The only oponion I ever come to when dealing with this kind of stuff is that religion is completely useless and a plague among man and that we would all be better off with out it. I despise religion in and of its self, now I dont care if you want to beleive in that stuff and all and im not going to think any less of you if you do. But it seems like such a waste of time, there are better things we could be doing with our lives then argueing of philisophical oponions when we know none of us are evering going to come to a factual conclusion. It logicaly doesnt make sense, religion is useless.
    Interesting. That must put you at odds with BMS from time to time.
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    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  2. #42
    Senior Member Oso Mocoso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sexist View Post
    But it seems like such a waste of time, there are better things we could be doing with our lives then argueing of philisophical oponions when we know none of us are evering going to come to a factual conclusion. It logicaly doesnt make sense, religion is useless.
    Yeah, to a certain extent I have to agree with you. If you're trying to figure out religion using logic or reason, there is absolutely nothing about Journey's statement that makes any sort of sense. He just believes what he believes, and there's no proof or evidence that comes in to play whatsoever. Many people are like that. They do not have any interest in learning about the mindset of people 2000 years ago, the language that was spoken back then, the culture that was dominant then, or the world-view of people back in that era. Religion just becomes a conversation stopper. It's too bad, because religion is such an interesting topic.

  3. #43
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    ^^
    Religion works well as a Rorschach (inkblot) test. What a person extracts from the Bible as important to them says much about them as an individual.

    And I like to compare myths/religions from different parts of the world to see what they have in common. That says much about the psychology of man.

  4. #44
    Fight For Freedom FFF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Journey View Post
    The New Testament talks about hell some 162 times and more than 70 times Jesus was speaking of hell. What about Hell? -- John MacArthur speaks to your topic much better than I can. Also you can just google "Jesus spoke on hell more than other topics" and pull up a world of information. I'm trying not to sermonize here as Kiddo asked us in the beginning.
    I think that depends on the Bible translation you use. If you take a piece of crap like the KJV and base your study of "hell" on that, then you'll be mislead in a lot of ways because the KJV and many other Bibles translate sheol/hades (Hewbrew/Greek respectively) into hell or grave at their own judgement. Neither of them should be translated hell because both of them appear to be referring to a holding place for the dead.

  5. #45
    Senior Member Journey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oso Mocoso View Post
    Yeah, to a certain extent I have to agree with you. If you're trying to figure out religion using logic or reason, there is absolutely nothing about Journey's statement that makes any sort of sense. He just believes what he believes, and there's no proof or evidence that comes in to play whatsoever. Many people are like that. They do not have any interest in learning about the mindset of people 2000 years ago, the language that was spoken back then, the culture that was dominant then, or the world-view of people back in that era. Religion just becomes a conversation stopper. It's too bad, because religion is such an interesting topic.
    I think you assume too much. I'm very aware that Jesus used the Gehenna example of the burning garbage dump as a type for hell, I just see Him using it as that, a type for hell. I am very much aware of the culture of the times, and the mindset of the people for I am a student of the Bible. I just interpret things differently than you do. I am always learning proofs and evidences to give reason for the hope I have within me. You wrongfully condemn me of the "sin" of almost a total ignorance of things Biblical among other stuff. You are also wrong that I am a he. I am a she.
    "My Journey is my Destination."

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  6. #46
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    One thought. I find it easy to find proof and evidence to support just about any idea or interpretation. What is tough is objectively examining other people's proof and evidence. We are, after all, usually much more interested in defending out own opinion than contemplating the merit of someone else's opinion. That is magnified a thousand fold when discussing religion, because some groups completely refuse to listen, but insist on trying to "enlighten" or "save" others nonetheless. They can even become destructive to the ones that love them.

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    But I think all Christian interpretations have some merit. It is, of course, important to look at the context of how those interpretations have been historically used. For example, the Catholic Church has a long, bloody history filled with many horrors, atrocities, and wars. Whereas many of the most liberal interpretations have felt it so wrong to condemn sin that they wouldn't testify in court, even in cases of murder and rape.

    In my opinion, that shows the answer doesn't lie to either extreme, but somewhere in between.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
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  7. #47
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Yes I brought that up in my original response to this thread(which for some reason would not post). If you look at the greater context of the "judge not, let thee be judged" verse, you find that Jesus talks about not being a hypocrite. He states that one cannot condemn the sin of others without first dealing with the sin in oneself. Only then can one deal with the sin of others.

    The basic problem we have here is that you can't just take random verses and attribute entire teachings to them, without taking into its context and how it relates to scriptures as a whole.
    You are right that Jesus is instructing us to deal with the sin within ourselves first. You are also correct that we should look at the verse within context. Here are the verses that preceed the one in question.

    "Do not judge lest you be judged yourselves. For in the way that you judge, you will be judged and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you. And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' and behold, the log is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly enough to take the spec out of your brother's eye."

    So what is the sin that we should first deal with that is within ourselves? The passage tells us that the "log" represents judging other people. The passage is clearly telling us not to judge. How do we know this? Look at the first three words: "Do not judge."

    The passage is describing how to correct another person's sin. But before a we correct another person, there is a huge hurdle we must overcome ourselves: "Do not judge". Do not judge the other person's worth. Do not judge their intentions, their character, or their relation to God. And do not be eager to punish the other person in any way. Instead consider yourselves to be equals in every way, and consider how you would like to be treated if the roles were reversed. Once you have removed this "log" from your own perspective then you will be able to see clearly enough to remove the "speck" from the other person and correct their behavior.
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  8. #48
    Senior Member Journey's Avatar
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    I hope that whenever I have confronted a brother about a sin, I have always been conscious of my own heart and what is there. (Not that I've done it that often. I'm somewhat passive and my heart is not as warm as it should be). I am absolutely capable of any sin. I have committed most all of them, at least within my heart, which Jesus said was the same thing, so that humbles me. And knowing the following are an abomination to the Lord and I have fallen into some of them humbles me no end:

    Prov 6:16-19
    These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:

    17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,

    18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,

    19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.
    KJV

    So I am without judgement (I hope) and humble (I hope) when I confront anyone's sin. The only way you can effectively win a brother from sin is to be loving and humble. It keeps them from being defensive with you when they know that you are down in the dirt with them just as fallen or more so than they are. And that's where we all are. Some of us are just forgiven sinners, not wanting to do it anymore (but failing sometimes, sometimes not yet aware of our sin).

    It is right that the Bible says not to judge or condemn. We are not in a position to judge or condemn. Only Jesus was and will judge in the end.
    "My Journey is my Destination."

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  9. #49
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    I'm guilty of 5 our of the 7. Good thing God is a forgiving chap.

    I still find this to be a difficult question. Is it man's place to condemn sin?

    There are some obvious shortcomings. Sometimes it isn't clear what is and isn't sin. Like the issue of homosexuality I mentioned earlier. There has never been, loving, committed same sex couples who wish to marry and have families. That kind of "homosexuality" is certainly different than the stories of rape in the Bible. Hence why in some countries like Canada, they see it as their moral duty to let same sex couples marry, whereas in the United States, they see it as an attack on the sanctity of marriage.

    Jesus said there was only one commandment. To love God and to love our neighbors as ourselves. So that is what I think defines a Christian from a hypochristian. If one is to condemn sin, then they must always begin with themselves before they begin to try to condemn any other sin. But once one has been humbled by seeing their own sinful nature, I wonder why anyone would seek to condemn the sins of others. To judge or condemn anything takes a certain amount of pride and pride in and of itself is a sin. And to be humble, as Jesus was, is to be without pride.

    So I would say man can condemn sin all he wants. But chances are he is committing a sin by doing so. Sin should only be a path to humility, never to righteousness.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
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  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    So what is the sin that we should first deal with that is within ourselves? The passage tells us that the "log" represents judging other people. The passage is clearly telling us not to judge. How do we know this? Look at the first three words: "Do not judge."
    He's not saying "judge not" in the abstract. As I already demonstrated, Jesus used harsh language in judging the wrong-doing of others, and even later in Acts St. Stephen uses the same kind of language, for which he is eventually martyred for.

    We can also look earlier into the Old Testament and read the language the Prophets used in condemning the wrong-doing of others.

    Now, in all these cases an important element must be remembered. The intention of such words is not the belittle people for its own sakes, or even belittle their value as people. Rather it's intended to bring people to repentence. And in order to do that, harsh language sometimes is needed.

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