Is suicide justified?

[Anew Leaf]

The more interesting question is: When is it justified to bring a new life into this world knowing that it will suffer?

Are you referring to a baby that will be born with a genetic or environmental disease that will cause its life to be unpleasant? Or in the general sense of that life is suffering?

 

[Lexicon]

I agree. I love to talk about all things.


I just dislike having to apologize about my style. Perhaps you touched on a nerve. Why can ExTJs get away with being asses but I get called on simple stating a vociferous opinion. Not just speaking to you, speaking in general.

Why do the rudest and crudest people get lauded for 'having a heart of gold, if you only knew him' but someone who truly cares about others all the time, and wants the best for humanity, gets called a bitch for stating her opinion? Why is that?

Ah I don't think you're a bitch at all.

Regarding the other types having a heart of gold, etc-- I think it may come from some difference in delivery- Perhaps because certain types tend to be more overtly diplomatic & careful of stepping on others' space for personal values most of the time, when we do step up & speak our minds- be it stating a belief- or questioning one- it can come off as more abrasive than if, say, a Thinker were to approach the topic.. if that makes sense. Some subtle difference in phrasing, perhaps?

 

[Eileen]

Actually, yes. I am averse to most meds unless a person really needs them to function in daily life.

Though I give those meds as a nurse. I disagree with doing so. But then, I disagree with pretty much everything in our medical system and way of life.

Two things:
1. It must be hard to do a job where you disagree with everything! I am interested to know how you (particularly as an INFJ but also as a human being) keep it up.
2. If a person's near the end of a very painful illness (I acknowledge that there are some that are not painful, but there are certainly some that are), what does "functioning" look like, anyway? Isn't daily life different when a person is dying?

I think the best thing is to have true informed consent, and education about choices, before a person reaches that point. Like living wills, except more explicit. Most people don't think about becoming brain damaged, or know what long-term care involves if they do. Since we are removed from contemplating death except in sensationalizing it, we need to sort of go out of our way to deal with it. Unlike earlier societies that were more intimate with death and dying, and didn't have as much technology to keep people alive, etc.

Some people are going to say, though, if they ever become so brain damaged that they aren't themselves (and perhaps they will outline what that means, precisely) or can't "function" anymore (also outlined, hopefully), that they want their lives ended in a humane way (also outlined). Not everybody is going to make the same decisions for him or herself around the topic of end-of-life choices, even if everybody gets the exact same accurate information.

Ultimately, I believe in people's free liberty to do as they like. But when those liberties rub against others (as it does when others must keep someone else alive), we need to be doing a better job at defining what that should/would look like I think.

I concur. So, I think I hear you saying that you believe that there is an ideal way to die and feel strongly that people ought to want that, but you wouldn't make the choice for them?

 

[Rasofy]

Suicide means you are making the overpopulation a lesser problem without disrespecting the integrity of other people. It's the ultimate unselfish act a person can make.*




*This is not my real opinion; I was just showing that it's possible to defend that ''suicide is good''. And if you are a suicidal person, take into account that you only have one life, and try to recognize that (imo) it is in your best interest to remain alive.
Thanks.

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

I don't really care though. Though I do appreciate your input and kindness to observe and state.


And, no, there is a real acceptance of assholery in our society. Perhaps you haven't noticed. An absolutely abrasive guy can get away with being an ass, and as long as he's occasionally nice, then everyone is like, "Oh, he's really a gem." I think, in saying this, it's mostly Fi type women excusing T type men. Or Fi type women excusing T type women. F types cannot get away with being abrasive like T types can. It's like they get a free pass or something.

You know?

 

[Lexicon]

I don't really care though. Though I do appreciate your input and kindness to observe and state.


And, no, there is a real acceptance of assholery in our society. Perhaps you haven't noticed. An absolutely abrasive guy can get away with being an ass, and as long as he's occasionally nice, then everyone is like, "Oh, he's really a gem." I think, in saying this, it's mostly Fi type women excusing T type men. Or Fi type women excusing T type women. F types cannot get away with being abrasive like T types can. It's like they get a free pass or something.

You know?

I'm guilty of letting T types be asses- but it always felt like that's how they're built- their intentions in saying what they do, at times, seems benign- I end up chocking it up to them being slightly retarded in the empathy dept. Perhaps that's why F's get a more startled response.. we're expected to be consistently diplomatic, since we often have more developed empathy/emotional insight, etc. With us it may seem like a conscious disregard for the feelings of others, vs a Thinker's disregard just being a biproduct of their naturally more detached processing.

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

I'm guilty of letting T types be asses- but it always felt like that's how they're built- their intentions in saying what they do, at times, seems benign- I end up chocking it up to them being slightly retarded in the empathy dept. Perhaps that's why F's get a more startled response.. we're expected to be consistently diplomatic, since we often have more developed empathy/emotional insight, etc. With us it may seem like a conscious disregard for the feelings of others, vs a Thinker's disregard just being a biproduct of their naturally more detached processing.

Well, that may be. But whatever it is, it's bullshit.

 

[Eileen]

Suicide means you are making the overpopulation a lesser problem without disrespecting the integrity of other people. It's the ultimate unselfish act a person can make.

I think that actions can have a variety of motivations that we might label selfish or unselfish. I wouldn't assume that all or even most people who choose to end their lives are necessarily concerned with overpopulation.

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

Two things:
1. It must be hard to do a job where you disagree with everything! I am interested to know how you (particularly as an INFJ but also as a human being) keep it up.

I'm used to it. It is my life. I have disagreed with most everything our society does, and the way we live, for my whole life. I do my own stuff differently, which is what keeps me sane. If they wanna pay me to perpetuate the fucked up system,... okay.

2. If a person's near the end of a very painful illness (I acknowledge that there are some that are not painful, but there are certainly some that are), what does "functioning" look like, anyway? Isn't daily life different when a person is dying?

Everyone's so hung up on pain. I see more pain in younger people who have more musculoskeletal problems or osteoarthritis than I see in people near the end of their life. Things that are worse than pain are not being able to breathe, not being able to move because you cannot process oxygen, not being able to swallow because you will choke and/or get pneumonia, falling and breaking things and being confined to one position in bed, brain damage, just to name a few.


End of life functioning looks like the beginning of the end. A person begins withdrawing from life. It is a process, and one that is documented. A person might begin to seclude themselves from others more and more. Might go inside their head more and more. Stop talking to others. Stay in their room. Not watch media. Close their eyes. Sleep more. Usually they become debilitated enough that they have some sort of accident or injury that makes them bedridden. Then they get infections, start retaining fluid, get hemostatis, and eventually get into a coma like state. It's a withdrawing into mind and into the beyond. I think during this process they began rerunning their life's tapes; remembering their life. They don't seem to care if others are around fairly early in this process. Even though others want to be with them when they pass. By that time they have become so One with themselves and the other side, that they don't notice nor care much, though I'm sure they register it on some heartfelt-loving plane.

So, you see, to invade in this process is so obtrusive and dastardly, to me it's repugnant and ugly. And an ultimate thievery and disruption of a person's final bit of life.

Some people are going to say, though, if they ever become so brain damaged that they aren't themselves (and perhaps they will outline what that means, precisely) or can't "function" anymore (also outlined, hopefully), that they want their lives ended in a humane way (also outlined). Not everybody is going to make the same decisions for him or herself around the topic of end-of-life choices, even if everybody gets the exact same accurate information.

I'm sure they will. I've heard to starve to death is not very pretty. But I've never seen it, so I don't really know. I am not sure how starving of thirst is. But the alternative of a feeding tube starts one on an even more slippery slope.

I concur. So, I think I hear you saying that you believe that there is an ideal way to die and feel strongly that people ought to want that, but you wouldn't make the choice for them?

Agreed. Unless I was in some position I had to. Then I would make the best decision possible.

 

[UniqueMixture]

I agree. I love to talk about all things.


I just dislike having to apologize about my style. Perhaps you touched on a nerve. Why can ExTJs get away with being asses but I get called on simple stating a vociferous opinion. Not just speaking to you, speaking in general.

Why do the rudest and crudest people get lauded for 'having a heart of gold, if you only knew him' but someone who truly cares about others all the time, and wants the best for humanity, gets called a bitch for stating her opinion? Why is that?

If you always give people what they want they will become upset if you take it away from them. Morality is absolute and relative not one or the other.

 

[Lark]

I'm all for life too. After watching my mother die slowly and painfully to cancer, my dad and I made a pact that if either of us gets like that, we bring the other cyanide.

Suicide because some boy doesn't like you or you didn't make it in the school play is a waste of a life.

Suicide as a way to die in your own terms when the galaxy of your body is dissipating, is another thing entirely.

I still couldnt agree with that but I have every sympathy with you and the suffering you describe is terrible and real and would convince some upon that point.

 

[Betty Blue]

Suicide means you are making the overpopulation a lesser problem without disrespecting the integrity of other people. It's the ultimate unselfish act a person can make.

And what if that person has dependents?

I think suicide can often (not always) be justified by the person who is comitting it. Also can be justified by those closest, witnessing the suffering of the individual. And then you can take the view of society into account. So... look at it in different ways.

It does depend on the circumstances though ...
For example, a person at the end stages of terminal cancer who is in terrible pain day and night and can not bear it any longer who truely believes they are ready to go. They, the individual may feel/think it is justified. The family and friends too may feel/think it is justified. Society as a whole may also reach the same conclusion as it is a drain on resources (if national health are paying). If it is private health insurance, society may also deem it justified based on rising prices due to persons having longer treatment etc.
Well, theres lots of variables.
My own personal perspective is that if someone is suffering so much (mentally/physically/both) they themselves can think of no other alternative and can no longer live in their own inner turmoil.
Well, i think it is their choice and i wouldn't judge them. I may however feel that is was a waste if other alternatives had not been explored/exhausted first and if no-one cared enough to help them.

The problem is...when do you say enough is enough, let this poor person go?

 

[Rasofy]

I wouldn't assume that all or even most people who choose to end their lives are necessarily concerned with overpopulation.

Still, an objective analysis is quite viable.

Truth is I'm just playing devil's advocate. Subjective morality questions bore me.

 

[Anew Leaf]

I still couldnt agree with that but I have every sympathy with you and the suffering you describe is terrible and real and would convince some upon that point.

It's amazing what shift ones perspective can have with a bit of practical experience versus mental projections.

 

[Nicodemus]

When is it justified to bring about nuclear holocaust knowing it will end all suffering?

I already answered that.

Are you referring to a baby that will be born with a genetic or environmental disease that will cause its life to be unpleasant? Or in the general sense of that life is suffering?

The latter. Even the happiest people suffer.

 

[LEGERdeMAIN]

I already answered that.


The latter. Even the happiest people suffer.

To end suffering, all you have to do is blow out the candle :]

 

[Anew Leaf]

I already answered that.


The latter. Even the happiest people suffer.

Interesting.

Do you wish then that your own existence had not existed?

 

[swordpath]

I think a person should have absolute control over their own life, so long as it doesn't directly physically harm another individual and isn't a behavior that will radically disrupt the flow of society around us. Obviously it would cause great anguish and emotional turmoil for loved ones, relatives, etc. but I don't think that is sound enough reasoning to put control over a person's freedom to do what they want with them self in regards to suicide. In general, it's hard to hear stories of suicide whether you know the person or not, but still I think an individual holds supreme right over themselves and their body. If that's the way someone wants to "go out" then, I don't think there should be a law that stops them. I do think that ideally the family/community unit should be vigilant to watch out for depression and signs of suicidal tendencies and to seek help to whatever extent necessary. But at some point, your power is limited over that person, and if they just can't shake the blues, then what can you do?

My mom's best friend just recently lost her brother to suicide. I know it has been absolutely hell for my mom's friend to deal with emotionally, because she cared for her brother so much and tried for years and years to be there for him through his depression (and knowing this woman, I'm sure she went above and beyond in every way). He went in and out of treatment, tried various things, had tremendous support from his sister, but it wasn't enough and he couldn't find the will to live. Living was apparently just too much to bare. Would it be justified to restrict him from eliminating his pain?

 

[1487610420]

To end suffering, all you have to do is blow out the candle :]

Moar birfdei parteeehz!

 

[Nicodemus]

Do you wish then that your own existence had not existed?

Of course.