Is suicide justified?

[Siúil a Rúin]

There's no question that suicide is traumatic to the people in the family or friend circle. I think this is what keeps many people from doing it, quite honestly. But, also, there are those times when you simply stop caring. This is radically egocentric, but I don't think it's necessarily criminally selfish to commit suicide. You could certainly do so in a way that diminished the pain for others, but I do think that suicidal thinking often discounts the social sphere so this impairment, which is necessary for suicide, would probably not operation in a way to allow you to spare others pain by planning your suicide in a responsible way.

I don't think it's necessarily criminal either; the most we can do is track the probable reverberations, but I'm not sure why morality is being dragged into it as a universal principle. People often guilt-trip the suicidal as inflicting hurt on others because they are somehow robbing the world of their capacity to give, yet are not considering how the group is robbing the individual of their capacity of choice as well as forcing them to suffer through difficult circumstances they themselves often are unable or unwilling to alleviate. (At its worst, it can remind me of pro-choice or pro-life people back in the 80's trying to force young women to follow their particular path via guilt trip, without doing anything to alleviate the difficulties or suffering they will face by choosing the offered course of action.)

I also don't know what sort of precedent this sets in terms of considering other actions immoral. The hurt of suicide occurs due to a change in relationship; are other changes in relationship (such as breaking up with a LTR) also now necessarily immoral? A person is being blamed for exercising their will to choose an end to their involvement (rather than choosing continual unbearable suffering), in opposition to others who don't want that choice to occur, in order to spare those others pain. Again, I'm not sure a moral judgment is appropriate; all that can be said is what the impact of either choice might have.

(The main challenge to this sort of stance, of course, is the question of thoughtful capacity: Is a suicidal person in a state of mind to make a coherent decision? This probably can differ from individual to individual.)

I'm not one for easy answers when there are conflicting 'goods' involved, even if the conflict is painful.

If this is in reference to my post, my statement does not describe any kind of universal morality. I also did not use the words, "criminally selfish" - those were added in response. The majority of statements describe ways in which the suicidal individual is more often incapacitated. It is true that a healthy response to inward imploding with depression is to look outward and be empowered by help that one can offer. I realize this statement refers to a more clique', universal idea, but that is not how I am using it. I use is as one of the scenarios, which is clear in the context of my original post. Even if it doesn't apply universally, it can bring a relatively healthy person back into a state of inner strength. This does not mean submitting to an oppressive social group, as it can also mean leaving one's current situation entirely.

We exist on many levels, the individual being one of those levels. There are consequences on multiple levels, the individual being one of those levels. Every person and culture weighs these with different strengths.

The idea of suicide can be used for a great deal of harm - it can be the most effective form of emotional blackmail. (not speaking of my experience per se). It can be done as directly causing hurt and punishment. It isn't one thing which is clear to anyone who has had any sort of encounter with it.

 

[Synarch]

If this is in reference to my post, my statement does not describe any kind of universal morality. The majority of statements describe ways in which the suicidal individual is more often incapacitated. It is true that a healthy response to inward imploding with depression is to look outward and be empowered by help that one can offer. I realize this statement refers to a more clique', universal idea, but that is not how I am using it. I use is as one of the scenarios, which is clear in the context of my original post. Even if it doesn't apply universally, it can bring a relatively healthy person back into a state of inner strength. This does not mean submitting to an oppressive social group, as it can also mean leaving one's current situation entirely. We exist on many levels, the individual being one of those levels. There are consequences on multiple levels, the individual being one of those levels. Every person and culture weighs these with different strengths.

The last bit is especially resonant to me. It is probably helpful to try to explore those different consequences, because as you have said, it is a problem with multiple dimensions. And, even acknowledging this can lend perspective. Suicide seems to often involve an extremely narrow perspective. A narrow perspective of time, of feeling, of subjectivity. It's very interesting that way. It is like a mental cul de sac of sorts.

The idea of suicide can be used for a great deal of harm - it can be the most effective form of emotional blackmail. (not speaking of my experience per se). It can be done as directly causing hurt and punishment. It isn't one thing which is clear to anyone who has had any sort of encounter with it.

The emotional blackmail aspect is worth exploring. I think anger factors often in suicides. Anger with one's self, anger with others. Suicide can be like the internalization of extreme anger and bitterness.

 

[Totenkindly]

If this is in reference to my post, my statement does not describe any kind of universal morality.

I was springboarding off small portions of your comments, but I wasn't referring specifically to them or I would have quoted you as you did me. Instead, I quoted Synarch, who i was directly referring to.

So I'm not sure a clarification is necessary, it seems self-evident.

The emotional blackmail aspect is worth exploring. I think anger factors often in suicides. Anger with one's self, anger with others. Suicide can be like the internalization of extreme anger and bitterness.

So what are some viable sources/types of anger that suicidal people might experience? Why would they be angry, potentially?

 

[Fidelia]

I found it interesting that Jennifer talked about that overwhelcoming feeling of numbness. When people's attachment needs are not met, the brain automatically tries to protect them from a vulnerability too great to bear by numbing them. This normally would be a temporary state, much like getting news of someone's death, or the body going into shock after an accident. However, when it goes on for a long time, it is like an emotional alarm bell sounding without anyone attending to it. It is not even recognized for what it is and instead results in people feeling restless or agitated (often referred to as boredom) without them even knowing why they feel that way. Even physical sensation is dulled. Because they are no longer as sensitive to what could hurt them, it is also easier to walk into the middle of dangerous or wounding situations without even realizing it, which further numbs them. In more advanced stages, the person becomes tearless and fearless, taking increasingly larger risks, just to feel something. This may take the form of self-harm, or other reckless behaviour. In some cases suicide is the ultimate risk.

While suicide happens for a variety of reasons, I believe that it very often stems from a sense of aggression that is very deep-seated. That aggression can take one of two paths (or both) - aggression against self, or aggression against others. The reason for these deep feelings of aggression is frustration caused by doing the same thing over and over that does not work. The results are very frustrating, and yet the person is not able to accept the futility of persuing the goal or the course of action that they have chosen. It is only when they come to a place of futility, tears and acceptance of what actually is, that they can decide what they are going to now do instead, and thereby become both adaptable and resilient.

In children, the primary factor that allows children to develop this ability is attachment to a strong adult acting from an alpha position. As an adult, many people have not learned to receive either protection, provision or proximity from other people and trust if they never received enough of that at crucial points in their life. Therefore, to get to a point where they are not constantly feeling aggression against themselves and others is recognizing the futility of chasing what they didn't get at key points earlier in life. Then they can then be open to other solutions that would allow them to accept what they need now or to follow a new and more effective course of action.

I certainly wouldn't be confident enough to say this fits absolutely everyone who commits suicide, but I do believe these factors have an impact in many suicide situations.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

While suicide happens for a variety of reasons, I believe that it very often stems from a sense of aggression that is very deep-seated. That aggression can take one of two paths (or both) - aggression against self, or aggression against others. The reason for these deep feelings of aggression is frustration caused by doing the same thing over and over that does not work. The results are very frustrating, and yet the person is not able to accept the futility of persuing the goal or the course of action that they have chosen. It is only when they come to a place of futility, tears and acceptance of what actually is, that they can decide what they are going to now do instead, and thereby become both adaptable and resilient.

Wow. I found this insightful. I have noticed that people often communicate their inner feelings by instilling them in the other person. What you describe here is exactly what I came to feel in my attempt to help a depressive, suicidal person. That's really interesting.

 

[Synarch]

So what are some viable sources/types of anger that suicidal people might experience? Why would they be angry, potentially?

I don't think the cause of anger is as important as the expression of it. The emotions are rarely necessary to criticize only the expression of emotions. For example, I might feel wounded, unreasonably so, but the feeling is not the problem or the thing we should criticize. The expression of the feeling is the locus of concern. I honestly don't have a lot of experience with suicidal people, but quite often I see that it can be a response to a feeling of being burdened.

 

[Fidelia]

Wow. I found this insightful. I have noticed that people often communicate their inner feelings by instilling them in the other person. What you describe here is exactly what I came to feel in my attempt to help a depressive, suicidal person. That's really interesting.

I've run up against this too. I think that when you can trace these feelings of numbness or aggression back to their cause, then maybe there is some hope of an effective course of action. The hard thing I've found though is that when a person is suffering from these issues, they often also find it difficult to temper their emotions. Whichever one is strongest at that moment is the one that is expressed, even if they may feel the other emotion or emotions separately afterwards. This leaves them open to acting impulsively on a feeling that may dissipate fairly quickly later on. They also tend to find it hard to endure the short term difficulties/fears/obstacles so that they can reach the long term prize. In all of these cases, I believe the only cure is strong emotional attachments. Then they go through the process of growing up wherever it was previously interrupted. It is difficult for an adult who has had reason not to develop trust to be willing to revisit what happened in such a way that they can face its futility and move on. Until they do this, it is hard for them to absorb all the love and care that others want to give them. It is impossible to receive love or care, without there being an element of trust present. For this reason, I think people need to go about creating attachments in more superficial/smaller/less vulnerable ways and then work up from there.

One of the keys I've also found is the need for looking outward. When a person learns to focus on what they can be thankful for, and also to not fixate on their own feelings, needs, wants, fears, anger etc, I think it helps to dissipate it and transform those problems into something that is of use, rather than a hindrance. Most self-centred behaviour is very rejecting of other people and it makes it difficult then for them to be a part of that person's cheering section over the longterm. Sometimes starting with a pet or a child opens the door for a little bit of vulnerability and ability to give/receive love that can be expanded and added to.

 

[Totenkindly]

I don't think the cause of anger is as important as the expression of it. The emotions are rarely necessary to criticize only the expression of emotions. For example, I might feel wounded, unreasonably so, but the feeling is not the problem or the thing we should criticize. The expression of the feeling is the locus of concern. I honestly don't have a lot of experience with suicidal people, but quite often I see that it can be a response to a feeling of being burdened.

I'm not sure I agree with the cause not being important, but I am looking at it more from the angle of expressed emotions being a symptom of a deeper issue. Sometimes we are able to control the expression adequately without addressing deeper concerns; but often the emotion is driven by a particular expectation for another person... a way that we perceive the world that is either not accurate or not healthy. (or maybe those two are actually the same, if we consider health to be the ability to realistically perceive and deal with the world.) And we will not be able to permanently stifle or transform the negative expressed until we locate and confront the expectation or perspective problem first.

Because they are no longer as sensitive to what could hurt them, it is also easier to walk into the middle of dangerous or wounding situations without even realizing it, which further numbs them. In more advanced stages, the person becomes tearless and fearless, taking increasingly larger risks, just to feel something. This may take the form of self-harm, or other reckless behaviour. In some cases suicide is the ultimate risk.

Nice post altogether, Fid.

I think along with this comes compulsive/addictive behavior as well -- for the reason of, as you say, "just to feel something." When I was so depressed, I struggled with compulsive behaviors of all types because it was only way I could momentarily feel a rush. And I hated feeling like my behavior was compulsive, I felt enslaved, but no matter how I tried, I just couldn't seem to stop getting hooked on SOMETHING. Often I would stop doing one thing, and something else would take its place soon after. It was only after I changed my circumstances and got out of my depression that my compulsions eased tremendously. I no longer needed them to remind myself I was alive.

Note: compulsive behavior = another excuse for self-loathing.

While suicide happens for a variety of reasons, I believe that it very often stems from a sense of aggression that is very deep-seated. That aggression can take one of two paths (or both) - aggression against self, or aggression against others. The reason for these deep feelings of aggression is frustration caused by doing the same thing over and over that does not work. The results are very frustrating, and yet the person is not able to accept the futility of persuing the goal or the course of action that they have chosen. It is only when they come to a place of futility, tears and acceptance of what actually is, that they can decide what they are going to now do instead, and thereby become both adaptable and resilient.

Interesting. I don't know if that is the only reason for aggression resulting in self-violence (or indirect other-violence), but it definitely sounds like a viable reason in itself. Kudos on the last part -- yes, that is the key. As long as people avoid the natural cycle of grief, they can never reach a position of strength and coherence; they are spending their energies in a denial of reality and living in a world that does not exist.

In children, the primary factor that allows children to develop this ability is attachment to a strong adult acting from an alpha position. As an adult, many people have not learned to receive either protection, provision or proximity from other people and trust if they never received enough of that at crucial points in their life. Therefore, to get to a point where they are not constantly feeling aggression against themselves and others is recognizing the futility of chasing what they didn't get at key points earlier in life. Then they can then be open to other solutions that would allow them to accept what they need now or to follow a new and more effective course of action.

Now you're scaring me.

Because I'm not numb now, I've actually experienced upwellings of direct anger at various people from my past, and have had to work through what that means. Usually it was because they didn't give me what I thought was a legitimate need.... and I would have said long before this that I did feel stranded as a child. My physical needs were provided for (which I do not want to downplay), but intellectually and emotionally and creatively I not only felt like I was on my own but that I was also parenting my own parents. And while I think there is a lot of truth to that, at the moment I'm having to perceive, accept, and work through the anger rising in me of a child who felt her legitimate needs were not being met (and still aren't now, in those relationships).

Awareness is necessary for those negative emotions to expose themselves directly. Otherwise it will express itself mostly indirectly, along with a few big direct explosions along the way if the pressure becomes too unbearable. (Either that, or the numbness grows deeper in order to stifle the stronger negative emotions.)

I think healing's less a linear process and more a cyclical one. i think we make progress, which then opens us up to more awareness, which raises more emotions to deal with, which lets us get even more awareness, and so on... and so we start the cycle over and over again until we finally shoot out the other side (hopefully).

The hard thing I've found though is that when a person is suffering from these issues, they often also find it difficult to temper their emotions.

At work might also be the reality that, for so long, those emotions were forced to remain hidden and the person was living a lie. Once things open up enough that those emotions can be expressed, it becomes a matter of integrity as well as self-respect to not want to just smother/deflate them again. I remember experience legitimate anger that, because of suppression, I had never been allowed to express; and it would piss me off so much that, when I was finally expressing it rather than trying to be "demure" that people would act as if the expression of my anger was somehow worse than the repression of my hurt. It was as if they were fine with me suffering in silence, but heaven forbid I allow them to experience the ramifications of problems in our relationship rather than just carrying it all silently on my shoulders again.

So yes... there can be lots of anger under there; and among other things, I can see self-destruction as either an act of violence against oneself for being too weak to defend oneself or an emotional blow against those who have been oppressive.

Wow. I found this insightful. I have noticed that people often communicate their inner feelings by instilling them in the other person. What you describe here is exactly what I came to feel in my attempt to help a depressive, suicidal person. That's really interesting.

Are you describing a type of projection, or something else entirely here?

Interestingly, nowadays, I get REALLY frustrated dealing with suicidal people. I want to be patient, and think I should be after wrestling with things so long in my own life, but I think I just see that there is no way through other than .... moving through. Sitting in that dead zone, I know from experience, is simply a waiting period; there will be no change; one eventually either chooses to act or chooses to die; there are no miracle cures or silver bullets. It's hard for me to listen to the indecision and cyclical reasoning, to the ambivalence and veiled anger, because I know it's unproductive and will only make things worse if it is not being used to work through awareness. To break the cycle, you have to leave the circle and start moving in a straight line.

 

[Arthur Schopenhauer]

Why should we be concerned with wasting time? Time is an illusion anyway, isn't it?

An illusion? What...?

 

[Synarch]

An illusion? What...?

The linear experience of time is an illusion based on our limited perspective.

 

[Magic Poriferan]

Putting guilt on the suicidal runs the risk of egging them into committing it. A suicidal person hardly needs another reason to be uncomfortable with themselves.

 

[Tiltyred]

I made 3 attempts, the last one when I was about 17 (decades ago). For me, it was about not understanding anything that was going on at the time. The adults around me were chaotic and totally unconcerned, and nothing made sense. I was introjecting a lot of bad stuff from people around me who were hiding facts from me. I could not get anyone to verify what I was intuiting. This made me feel extremely isolated and distrusting. I felt as if I had disappeared.

Don't read David Foster Wallace if you're suicidal. I nearly jumped off a building when I heard that he'd done himself in. But here's the thing: I can totally understand why. Maybe this is horrible to say, but in some cases, it would almost be cruel to insist the person keep on. He was my favorite author and it will always hurt that no one could help him, but the fact is, no one could. I wouldn't want someone in that level of pain to stay alive just to please me or anyone else.

But it's also true that you will die. You don't have to rush it; it's already a fact. So you may as well hang around as best you can and enjoy what you're able to enjoy.

 

[Synarch]

I made 3 attempts, the last one when I was about 17 (decades ago). For me, it was about not understanding anything that was going on at the time. The adults around me were chaotic and totally unconcerned, and nothing made sense. I was introjecting a lot of bad stuff from people around me who were hiding facts from me. I could not get anyone to verify what I was intuiting. This made me feel extremely isolated and distrusting. I felt as if I had disappeared.

I am glad you are still here. I have appreciated your perspective. That must have been difficult.

Do you think, in your attempts, you were attempting to draw attention to the things you were sensing?

Don't read David Foster Wallace if you're suicidal. I nearly jumped off a building when I heard that he'd done himself in. But here's the thing: I can totally understand why. Maybe this is horrible to say, but in some cases, it would almost be cruel to insist the person keep on. He was my favorite author and it will always hurt that no one could help him, but the fact is, no one could. I wouldn't want someone in that level of pain to stay alive just to please me or anyone else.

There is a feeling I get when I think about this and it feels like "suicide is a rational response to an irrational situation". I've really been thinking about how much in life is a problem of context. Take isolation, lack of support, sensitivity, poor coping skills, and poor relationships; mix it all together and you can have a volatile personal dynamic. The times in my life when I have really stopped caring were just when I was overwhelmed and did not know how to seek support from others. I took the burden of life entirely on my own shoulders, even though I need not do so.

 

[Salomé]

I could go on for hours as to what finally led me to that moment..but to be brief and not strip my soul bare..it began when i was 8 years old. A combination of emotional abuse, constant bullying, abandonment, mental illness and a murder led me to the only safe place i knew..deep inside myself. Death was the only thing that held comfort for me and i thought about and planned my suicide for years. Even when i was happy i still wanted to die. I thought life just wasn't for me and i did not want to continue experiencing it.

I truly believe that is the case for some people.. i am not anti or pro suicide..but i do believe in freedom of choice and it is a person's life and they can decide to take it if they so chose - ONLY if they are clear of mind, an adult who hasn't given their life to raising another, and there is no mental illness burried within screaming at them to end it all.

"He who does not accept and respect those who want to reject life does not truly accept and respect life itself."

Thomas Szasz

This is the best post in the thread. Uninformed do-gooders moralizing about suicide is sickening to me. It's every bit as selfish to have children as it is to kill yourself, arguably more so, but who ever condemns that act?

A MAN who retires from life does no harm to society: He only ceases to do good; which, if it is an injury, is of the lowest kind. -- All our obligations to do good to society seem to imply something reciprocal. I receive the benefits of society, and therefore ought to promote its interests; but when I withdraw myself altogether from society, can I be bound any longer? But allowing that our obligations to do good were perpetual, they have certainly some bounds; I am not obliged to do a small good to society at the expence of a great harm to myself; why then should I prolong a miserable existence, because of some frivolous advantage which the public may perhaps receive from me? If upon account of age and infirmities, I may lawfully resign any office, and employ my time altogether in fencing against these calamities, and alleviating, as much as possible, the miseries of my future life: why may I not cut short these miseries at once by an action which is no more prejudicial to society? -- But suppose that it is no longer in my power to promote the interest of society, suppose that I am a burden to it, suppose that my life hinders some person from being much more useful to society. In such cases, my resignation of life must not only be innocent, but laudable. And most people who lie under any temptation to abandon existence, are in some such situation; those who have health, or power, or authority, have commonly better reason to be in humour with the world. ~David Hume - Essay on Suicide

I certainly intend to die at my own hand at a time of my choosing rather than of old age or infirmity. It seems to me the only rational choice.

Putting guilt on the suicidal runs the risk of egging them into committing it. A suicidal person hardly needs another reason to be uncomfortable with themselves.

Actually, it's the only thing that acts as a restraint on some, but guilting someone into staying alive (and suffering profoundly) is a hideously selfish thing to do.

 

[Tiltyred]

Do you think, in your attempts, you were attempting to draw attention to the things you were sensing?
Take isolation, lack of support, sensitivity, poor coping skills, and poor relationships; mix it all together and you can have a volatile personal dynamic. The times in my life when I have really stopped caring were just when I was overwhelmed and did not know how to seek support from others. I took the burden of life entirely on my own shoulders, even though I need not do so.

No, I really wanted to be finished. True what you say about context, though, which is another argument for hanging around -- things can change. Or sometimes you can change them. I think some suicides just feel trapped.

 

[Synarch]

No, I really wanted to be finished. True what you say about context, though, which is another argument for hanging around -- things can change. Or sometimes you can change them. I think some suicides just feel trapped.

Earlier I talked about how suicide can seem the result of a narrow perspective. The belief that things will not change, the feeling of being mired in the burdens of the present, the feeling of isolation and lack of trust and love and support, and the belief that what you feel NOW is how things ARE. For me, in those moments I feel overwhelmed and the nature of the universe itself felt oppressive. Like I was trapped in a black iron prison (in the words of Philip K. Dick). But, for me, just seeing this darkness and trying to feel it rather than escape it has been helpful.

This is why I think it's important to discuss these things and simply listen because by listening we allow people to voice their burdens, which is difficult for me to do. But, in doing so, it can allow space for relating which can diminish isolation and increase the feeling of connectedness.

On a related note, I was fascinated with this painting at the Van Gogh Museum in Amsterdam:

Something about the black birds emerging from the wheat really spoke to me. On one of the plaques, Van Gogh mentioned in one of his letters the dark moods as "the old red and black". This is the challenge of being a sensitive person. How do you integrate your feelings in a healthy way?

 

[Quay]

Yeah. Never attempted a rapid death, but a slow one by drinking from dusk til dawn, and dangerous, risky behaviors resulting from being drunk off my ass. I wanted to give myself time to marinate and think about killing myself.

I am occasionally a nihilist...but one thing I've learned is I'm a never dealt a hand that does not enlighten me after the river. There are many things I have learned in my few years on this planet (and I'm sure there's far more in worlds before my time here, thus after). I'm hungry for the learning of life, so I straightened the shit out and kept it moving.

 

[Synarch]

Putting guilt on the suicidal runs the risk of egging them into committing it. A suicidal person hardly needs another reason to be uncomfortable with themselves.

Good point. Trying to burden someone with guilt or egging them on can be a way to "deny" the truth of their feeling, perhaps out of a need to keep yourself contagion-free from their depression, but it's still a way to deny their feeling. I would listen, acknowledge, and then if they were serious I would take them seriously and get them help. It might be overreacting but this is the kind of thing where I would feel better overreacting than not underreacting.

 

[Synarch]

Yeah. Never attempted a rapid death, but a slow one by drinking from dusk til dawn, and dangerous, risky behaviors resulting from being drunk off my ass. I wanted to give myself time to marinate and think about killing myself.

I think I read once that alcohol is the slow, excruciating way of killing yourself. I think it's a spectrum of behaviors that encompasses the same theme: the lack of desire or lack of coping skills necessary to take CARE of one's self.

 

[Synarch]

To be, or not to be– that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles
And, by opposing, end them. To die, to sleep
No more – and by a sleep to say we end
The heartache and the thousand natural shocks
That flesh is heir to – 'tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wished. To die, to sleep
To sleep, perchance to dream. Ay, there's the rub,
For in that sleep of death what dreams may come,
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
Must give us pause. There's the respect
That makes calamity of so long life.
For who would bear the whips and scorns of time,
Th' oppressor's wrong, the proud man's contumely,
The pangs of disprized love, the law's delay,
The insolence of office, and the spurns
That patient merit of th' unworthy takes,
When he himself might his quietus make
With a bare bodkin? Who would fardels bear,
To grunt and sweat under a weary life,
But that the dread of something after death,
The undiscovered country from whose bourn
No traveller returns, puzzles the will
And makes us rather bear those ills we have
Than fly to others that we know not of?
Thus conscience doth make cowards of us all,
And thus the native hue of resolution
Is sicklied o'er with the pale cast of thought,
And enterprises of great pith and moment
With this regard their currents turn awry,
And lose the name of action.—Soft you now!
The fair Ophelia! Nymph, in thy orisons
Be all my sins remembered.