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  1. #61
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blown Ghost View Post
    They have nothing, and will always have nothing, they are nothing. Your situation is bad, but at least you have life. At least you have yourself, no matter how bad you are. They have nothing.
    You forget the important part: that they are nothing. Nothing has no regrets.

  2. #62
    Senior Member Blown Ghost's Avatar
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    I edited my post a little, you may want to re-read it.

    I'm speaking on entirely 100% selfish ground. I explain it this way because when someone commits suicide they are being entirely selfish. In my explanation I am giving that to them... fine, you're gonna be that way. It's still a mistake for you, and the only reason someone would come to a different conclusion is because they are too scared to be totally honest with themselves and think through the decision fully before doing it. They don't want to think through it fully because they know they will not be able to do it were they to be completely honest about it, and in that moment where they want to end it all, they don't want to be prevented from doing so, so they don't even allow themselves to prevent it.

    They want the decision to remain easy to make, because at that moment that is what they want. They want to be able to push the button and get what they want. Why make it more complicated by being totally honest and thinking it through, especially when doing so will most definitely convince you otherwise? That's not what they want in that moment!

    So, this is why it is a mistake, a fallacy, for people to commit suicide... I know it's difficult to follow but please try. People who commit suicide have not thought it through with honest totality, else they wouldnt, therefore they are purposefully limiting themselves from doing so in order to make that decision, assuming once it's done it's done and the question itself ceases to exist. Forget about how it's going to effect everyone else, you're erasing yourself that's the least of your worries, right? The reason it is STILL a mistake is because this is making a with objectively permanent decision based on subjective temporary reasoning and/or feelings.

    The reason there is no evidence because that is the only way one can fully consider such a decision before making it. and even if you're fully convinced you want to commit suicide, you must fully consider it before doing it because every other decision has temporary effects, no matter how bad they are. Dying, on the other hand, always permanent, always total, objectively so, with not a single subjective positive effect because you're not even existent to experience one.


    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    You forget the important part: that they are nothing. Nothing has no regrets.
    No, in fact, that is the very reason people commit suicide and I'm well aware of that. My point is, you cannot make this decision on the basis of what your non-existent self doesn't experience because you don't know what that is, and if you actually go there you cannot change your mind. Therefore, that leaves your existent self to decide which is better, and if your existent self is totally honest, it will never choose suicide.

    This comparison is difficult to make because how can you conceive nothing? But regardless, it's simple cost/benefit analysis, and it is simply impossible for nothing to be the best decision. Therefore, it is the absolute worst. Contrary to mass belief, the suicide is not problematic from a philosophical viewpoint. I know this because I started with the exact opposite viewpoint and still ended up with this determination: to the fullest extent nothing can be conceived (or rather, total lack of conception) there is absolutely no benefit from it, leaving everything else as a better outcome and choosing nothing over anything to be the worst decision possible. This determination is made from an entirely, 100% selfish point of view where the only consciousness is the bare minimum thought required to reason out the decision. If you don't believe me, consider the proclivity of the nature of the universe and the fact that not a single animal (aside from humans, if you consider humans animals or equal to them) commits suicide.

  3. #63
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    I think it's the emphasis on it won't matter anymore if you become nothing. I have imagined being nothing, I think of the color black, but even that is not nothing. Animal instinct for the most part is to survive, their is no compelling reason to change that so we'll leave it be. My question can literally never be answered, I find that more depressing then anything hahaha. Thanks guys. I think I'm going to let this rest now. If you wish you can continue. I think I'm satisfied for a lifetime or so .

  4. #64
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blown Ghost View Post
    No, in fact, that is the very reason people commit suicide and I'm well aware of that. My point is, you cannot make this decision on the basis of what your non-existent self doesn't experience because you don't know what that is, and if you actually go there you cannot change your mind. Therefore, that leaves your existent self to decide which is better, and if your existent self is totally honest, it will never choose suicide.
    I am fully convinced that there is no afterlife. Therefore, I cannot regret killing myself after I have done so. Therefore, I can make the decision on the basis of what my existent self does and my non-existent self does not experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blown Ghost View Post
    This comparison is difficult to make because how can you conceive nothing? But regardless, it's simple cost/benefit analysis, and it is simply impossible for nothing to be the best decision. Therefore, it is the absolute worst. Contrary to mass belief, the suicide is not problematic from a philosophical viewpoint. I know this because I started with the exact opposite viewpoint and still ended up with this determination.
    If nothing is 0 and life is -10, nothing wins.

  5. #65
    Senior Member Blown Ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    If nothing is 0 and life is -10, nothing wins.
    Right, I understand this line of reasoning and why many believe suicide to be a worthy consideration. I too used to think in such a way.

    A true mathematical representation, would not be 0 vs -10. It would be more like life being any number and death being a complete lack thereof. Comparatively, any number no matter how negative is still an infinity times more valuable than absolutely no number at all.

    A simpler way to put it is this: we cannot know what exists after death, which is why death is our greatest fear. However, we're we able to overcome our greatest fear, we would not choose death because it still remains the worst thing that can happen to anyone. So let's say you have no fear of death or what comes after death... why are you still alive, then? Why have you not chosen death at the very moment you were totally free from fear? because you know this to be true, and this is the reason this isn't circular logic even though it sounds like it:

    Those who commit suicide are often still fear death, but they fear living until natural death more. However, we have determined death to be the worst outcome. Therefore, they have made a mistake, and one that only their post-death self (were it to exist and be able to converse with their live self) would realize and be able to tell them. It's too late at that point, though.


    If none of this is convincing, or makes sense, I ask you this: why are you here reading this? Why don't you default to doing absolutely nothing aside from what is totally necessary to survive (or perhaps not even that?). Something is always better than absolutely nothing. Always. If you disagree, then I suggest you find somewhere comfortable and just exist there and tell me you don't eventually change your mind. Well, when you do, consider yourself lucky, because you had that option. Those who commit suicide do not. When they make the choice to end their life they do not realize fully what they are doing, which is why I can say with 100% confidence that it is a mistake for them to do so.

  6. #66
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blown Ghost View Post
    Right, I understand this line of reasoning and why many believe suicide to be a worthy consideration. I too used to think in such a way.
    You obviously do not understand this line of reasoning.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blown Ghost View Post
    A true mathematical representation, would not be 0 vs -10. It would be more like life being any number and death being a complete lack thereof. Comparatively, any number no matter how negative is still an infinity times more valuable than absolutely no number at all.
    Not so. If we want to value the desirability of things (activities or states of being), we can do it in numbers, positive numbers for good things, negative numbers for bad things; no or a neutral number for a lack of desirability or value. If, then, someone regards life to be a plight rather than a vortex of happy happenings, a negative number (such as -10) is a reasonable valuation of it. Since death involves neither good nor bad things, being dead has to be assigned to no or a neutral number (such as 0).

    Quote Originally Posted by Blown Ghost View Post
    A simpler way to put it is this: we cannot know what exists after death, which is why death is our greatest fear.
    We still hold strong convictions. Some are based on religious foofaraw, some on empirical observations. My conviction that there is nothing after life is strong enough to allow me to commit suicide.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blown Ghost View Post
    However, we're we able to overcome our greatest fear, we would not choose death because it still remains the worst thing that can happen to anyone.
    Albus Dumbledore disagrees with you; so do I. I also fail to see why you think that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blown Ghost View Post
    So let's say you have no fear of death or what comes after death... why are you still alive, then? Why have you not chosen death at the very moment you were totally free from fear?
    Because I am not all reason; I have feelings, I even possess the ominous will to life. I do not wish to cause my family pain, although I know that this concern would vanish in the moment of death. Death concerns not the dead but the living.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blown Ghost View Post
    because you know this to be true, and this is the reason this isn't circular logic even though it sounds like it:

    Those who commit suicide are often still fear death, but they fear living until natural death more. However, we have determined death to be the worst outcome. Therefore, they have made a mistake, and one that only their post-death self (were it to exist and be able to converse with their live self) would realize and be able to tell them. It's too late at that point, though.
    You have arbitrarily decided that death is the worst outcome, even though you previously said that death has neither positive nor negative value, representing "a complete lack thereof".

    Quote Originally Posted by Blown Ghost View Post
    If none of this is convincing, or makes sense, I ask you this: why are you here reading this? Why don't you default to doing absolutely nothing aside from what is totally necessary to survive (or perhaps not even that?).
    Because I enjoy doing some things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blown Ghost View Post
    Something is always better than absolutely nothing. Always.
    For a subject experiencing it, for a living person; but not for nothing. Nothing is perfectly satisfied with doing nothing.

  7. #67
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    Interesting article/blog post I read today precipitated by the recent string of homosexual suicides , about suicide as an adaptive mechanism with evolutionary roots.

    http://www.scientificamerican.com/bl...-d-2010-10-11#

    Some interesting bits:

    ... because there is convincing work—all tracing back to McMaster University’s Denys deCatanzaro’s largely forgotten ideas from the early 1980s—indicating that human suicide is an adaptive behavioral strategy that becomes increasingly likely to occur whenever there is a perfect storm of social, ecological, developmental and biological variables factoring into the evolutionary equation. In short, deCatanzaro has posited that human brains are designed by natural selection in such a way as to encourage us to end our own lives when facing certain conditions, because this was best for our suicidal ancestors’ overall genetic interests.

    ...Saying that suicide is adaptive may also sound odd to you from an evolutionary perspective, because on the surface it seems to fly in the face of evolution’s first rule of thumb, which is to survive and reproduce. However, as William Hamilton’s famous principle of inclusive fitness elucidated so clearly, it is the proportion of one’s genetic material surviving in subsequent generations that matters; and so if the self’s survival comes at the expense of one’s genetic kin being able to pass on their genes, then sacrificing one’s life for a net genetic gain may have been adaptive ancestrally.
    And in particular, I found this equation interesting:

    So let’s turn our attention now to human suicide. To crystallize his position, I present deCatanzaro’s “mathematical model of self-preservation and self-destruction” (circa 1986):

    Ψi = ρi + Σbkρkrk

    Where Ψi = the optimal degree of self-preservation expressed by individual i (the residual capacity to promote inclusive fitness);
    ρi = the remaining reproductive potential of i;
    ρk = the remaining reproductive potential of each kinship member k;
    bk = a coefficient of benefit (positive values of b k ) or cost (negative values of b k ) to the reproduction of each k provided by the continued existence of i (-1 ≤ b ≤ 1);
    rk = the coefficient of genetic relatedness of each k to i (sibling, parent, child = .5; grandparent, grandchild, nephew or niece, aunt or uncle = .25; first cousin = .125; etc.).
    Personally, I have no ethical problem with suicide or euthanasia. I'm a big quality of life person.



  8. #68
    The Duchess of Oddity Queen Kat's Avatar
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    So I had to be sacrificed for the sake of avoiding that people with my genes were born? What kind of strange cult is this evolution thing?! Fuck evolution! I don't do human sacrifice!
    I was sitting outside the classroom waiting to go in, and I saw an airplane hit the tower. The TV was obviously on. I used to fly myself and I said, "There's one terrible pilot."
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  9. #69
    Senior Member ColonelGadaafi's Avatar
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    Default Suicide

    Have you contemplated the act of suicide. What meaning it has and what self-perception and view on life could ultimately lead to self-demise as a conclusion?.

    I want to avoid giving any specifics just for the sake of an open discussion.
    "Where can you flee? What road will you use to escape us? Our horses are swift, our arrows sharp, our swords like thunderbolts, our hearts as hard as the mountains, our soldiers as numerous as the sand. Fortresses will not detain us, nor arms stop us. Your prayers to God will not avail against us. We are not moved by tears nor touched by lamentations."

  10. #70
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    Not really. I'm not the murdering type, especially not myself. But sure. I play with the idea. Just don't see a point to it. I'll be dead soon enough anyhow. This is my little illusion of life. And I quite like it. Human an all. Could have been worse. I don't have big enough problems to justify such an act.

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