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  1. #291
    Nerd King Usurper Edgar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    They often don't remember who they are or where they are, and sometimes cannot even think much at all. Yet we go to extraordinary measures to keep this mass of cells alive. I have to ask why. And I have to wonder if that is the best route to take.
    It's a combination of religious mores and financial interests. Suicide/assisted suicide is highly frowned upon in Christianity, which is ingrained in the American culture, so that's one thing. As for financial interests: a hospital can easily make more money from postponing an elderly person's death by 6 months than they could have from all other medical bills that that person incurred in their lifetime.* And considering that this is a highly emotional issue for a lot of people, it's quite easy to sway them against legalizing suicide.

    *My brother works in oncology. He was telling me how they wheel in 80+ year old patients into a multi-million dollar machine to treat their cancer with radiation therapy.

    If I was in my 80s with one foot in the grave, I'd rather enjoy a month of a fairly normal living than 6 months of being blasted with radiation and poisoned by chemo therapy. Fuck that shit.

    Also, if I'm so messed up from Alzheimer's that I can't even remember my own goddamn name, I'd rather be dead.
    Listen to me, baby, you got to understand, you're old enough to learn the makings of a man.

  2. #292
    Senior Member Viridian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    an inconsequential conversation. whether suicide is "justified" is going to be the last thing on the mind of someone seriously considering it
    I tend to agree with this, at least from my layman's POV (and after reading a bit about clinical depression). It's not so much that they're selfish (and, frankly, I find it sort of unproductive to label the person who attempted to take his own life as such), but that, for whatever reason, they can't cope with it anymore - "it" reffering to external situations, overwhelming feelings, despair, mood disorders, etc.

    I think sometimes the agony is too much to take. Doesn't mean we shouldn't help people who think of committing suicide, but it's a delicate situation. Plus, if you emphasize that the person's true value lies with being alive to keep their loved ones happy, what happens when someone is widowed, or moves away, or the children leave the nest?

    /2¢
    Tentative typing: ISFJ 6w5 or 9w1 (Sp/S[?]).

  3. #293
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    I did not say that. I said natural, regarding our biological bodies, for one thing, is usually the best route to take.
    So if you get cancer: let nature take its course. This is 18th century thinking.

  4. #294
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    If I was in my 80s with one foot in the grave, I'd rather enjoy a month of a fairly normal living than 6 months of being blasted with radiation and poisoned by chemo therapy. Fuck that shit.

    Also, if I'm so messed up from Alzheimer's that I can't even remember my own goddamn name, I'd rather be dead.
    My views tend to be similar; I don't want my life to be strung along if I'm no longer living in any capacity that I would call life - especially if it's old age and I consider it my time.

    I need to get a living will written up soon.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  5. #295
    Temporal Mechanic. Lexicon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    My views tend to be similar; I don't want my life to be strung along if I'm no longer living in any capacity that I would call life - especially if it's old age and I consider it my time.

    I need to get a living will written up soon.
    Yeah, if I sustained permanent brain damage [leaving me in a persistent vegetative state] or any of the above described, please, pull the fucking plug.
    03/23 06:06:58 EcK: lex
    03/23 06:06:59 EcK: lex
    03/23 06:21:34 Nancynobullets: LEXXX *sacrifices a first born*
    03/23 06:21:53 Nancynobullets: We summon yooouuu
    03/23 06:29:07 Lexicon: I was sleeping!



    04/25 04:20:35 Patches: Don't listen to lex. She wants to birth a litter of kittens. She doesnt get to decide whats creepy

    02/16 23:49:38 ygolo: Lex is afk
    02/16 23:49:45 Cimarron: she's doing drugs with Jack

    03/05 19:27:41 Time: You can't make chat morbid. Lex does it naturally.

  6. #296
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lexicon View Post
    Yeah, if I sustained permanent brain damage [leaving me in a persistent vegetative state] or any of the above described, please, pull the fucking plug.
    Any last words?
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

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  7. #297
    Temporal Mechanic. Lexicon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    So if you get cancer: let nature take its course. This is 18th century thinking.
    This reminds me of my old ISTP roommate -who is a nurse- telling me about the time he had to care for a 13yr old girl who'd developed endometrial cancer. It was completely operable, and could have been resolved, at the stage it was first detected. Her parents, however, firmly believed in ''just letting God & Mother Nature decide,'' -basically condemning their child to a long, painful, unnecessarily early death. Needless to say, my friend was profoundly disgusted and frustrated by the more or less primitive approach these people took to ''care'' for their daughter.
    03/23 06:06:58 EcK: lex
    03/23 06:06:59 EcK: lex
    03/23 06:21:34 Nancynobullets: LEXXX *sacrifices a first born*
    03/23 06:21:53 Nancynobullets: We summon yooouuu
    03/23 06:29:07 Lexicon: I was sleeping!



    04/25 04:20:35 Patches: Don't listen to lex. She wants to birth a litter of kittens. She doesnt get to decide whats creepy

    02/16 23:49:38 ygolo: Lex is afk
    02/16 23:49:45 Cimarron: she's doing drugs with Jack

    03/05 19:27:41 Time: You can't make chat morbid. Lex does it naturally.

  8. #298
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    It's a combination of religious mores and financial interests. Suicide/assisted suicide is highly frowned upon in Christianity, which is ingrained in the American culture, so that's one thing. As for financial interests: a hospital can easily make more money from postponing an elderly person's death by 6 months than they could have from all other medical bills that that person incurred in their lifetime.* And considering that this is a highly emotional issue for a lot of people, it's quite easy to sway them against legalizing suicide.

    *My brother works in oncology. He was telling me how they wheel in 80+ year old patients into a multi-million dollar machine to treat their cancer with radiation therapy.

    If I was in my 80s with one foot in the grave, I'd rather enjoy a month of a fairly normal living than 6 months of being blasted with radiation and poisoned by chemo therapy. Fuck that shit.

    Also, if I'm so messed up from Alzheimer's that I can't even remember my own goddamn name, I'd rather be dead.
    Agreed. But mainly our thinking really is along those lines: Keep people alive at any cost. Yet we don't seem to care very much about quality of life...

    And, letting someone die who cannot take care of himself isn't really suicide in my mind. But I'm not sure there is a term for it. Probably because we don't even acknowledge it as a viable possibility in western society. Any thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    So if you get cancer: let nature take its course. This is 18th century thinking.
    I didn't say that. We have hardly even cracked open the discussion. Do you always leap so far ahead?

    Mainly I was discussing end of life issues and keeping people alive who, without our ministrations, would die relatively quickly by not being able to feed or water themselves. And how this rubs up against suicide, but really isn't exactly.
    Ni/Ti/Fe/Si
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  9. #299
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lexicon View Post
    This reminds me of my old ISTP roommate -who is a nurse- telling me about the time he had to care for a 13yr old girl who'd developed endometrial cancer. It was completely operable, and could have been resolved, at the stage it was first detected. Her parents, however, firmly believed in ''just letting God & Mother Nature decide,'' -basically condemning their child to a long, painful, unnecessarily early death. Needless to say, my friend was profoundly disgusted and frustrated by the more or less primitive approach these people took to ''care'' for their daughter.
    It is as the great Galiani said: Nature does not care about us.

    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    I didn't say that. We have hardly even cracked open the discussion. Do you always leap so far ahead?

    Mainly I was discussing end of life issues and keeping people alive who, without our ministrations, would die relatively quickly by not being able to feed or water themselves. And how this rubs up against suicide, but really isn't exactly.
    I am not interested in a discussion with you. I wanted to give you something that would make you reconsider your perspective. Since that seems fruitless, I will stop here.

  10. #300
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    So if you get cancer: let nature take its course. This is 18th century thinking.
    @Nicodemus

    I am not interested in a discussion with you. I wanted to give you something that would make you reconsider your perspective. Since that seems fruitless, I will stop here.
    When you quote me and post a statement addressing something I've said, I consider that a form of discussion. You needn't be a brusque ass in response. You're lucky I'm even addressing your comment.

    The fact is you jumped way ahead to putting words in my mouth regarding the cancer thing. Cancer treatment is a form of technology. Technology can obviously supersede nature in many ways. But in most ways as it regards our bodies and the earth, it often falls short of its mark. And especially as we near the edges of our reality here on earth, regarding life and death, it's not very helpful, is it? It's mostly beneficial in the middle of our lives, where there is more wiggle room for qualitative endeavors.
    Ni/Ti/Fe/Si
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    ~Torah observant, Christ inspired~
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    The more one loves God, the more it is that having nothing in the world means everything, and the less one loves God, the more it is that having everything in the world means nothing.

    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

    songofmary.wordpress.com


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