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  1. #241
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saturned View Post
    It's amazing what shift ones perspective can have with a bit of practical experience versus mental projections.
    I've had terrible experience too Saturned, although my beliefs on certain topics are pretty hard and fast, this is one of them, there are only a few on which I cant waver but this is one of them.

  2. #242
    Senior Member Munchies's Avatar
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    Let me re-word the question for you guys.

    "Is there objective truth, according to our subjective perspectives"

    The answer

    "Subjective"
    1+1=3 OMFG

  3. #243
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    I see suicide as morally "bad" more because of the effects it has on others than the effects it may have on oneself. Personally, I really don't have any problems with someone wanting to die sooner than they would otherwise. Your life is yours, and someone trying to tell you that you must sustain it is inherently violating your right to your self. However, suicide has extraordinarily traumatic effects on those around you, which is why I don't generally consider it as a viable option for anyone.

  4. #244
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    Suicide means you are making the overpopulation a lesser problem without disrespecting the integrity of other people. It's the ultimate unselfish act a person can make.
    Thats silly. Unselfish assumes intent leading to the aforementioned. And statistically speaking suicide attempts (you cant really do a post hoc interview for the other ones) are not about being unselfish.

    it sound pretty and all but all too much like the type of profound thought found in a jap anime meant for 14 year olds.

    To give my opinion I dislike discussing suicide too much because the people who commit suicide are gone and its surely not going to help them.
    The people who can get hurt by needlessly overdiscussing the topic in the absence of a trusting relationship etc certainly arent.

    So doesnt always seem like its a worthwhile topic overall.
    However I wouldnt be me if i completely censured myself in this matter.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  5. #245
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    I don't really care though. Though I do appreciate your input and kindness to observe and state.


    And, no, there is a real acceptance of assholery in our society. Perhaps you haven't noticed. An absolutely abrasive guy can get away with being an ass, and as long as he's occasionally nice, then everyone is like, "Oh, he's really a gem." I think, in saying this, it's mostly Fi type women excusing T type men. Or Fi type women excusing T type women. F types cannot get away with being abrasive like T types can. It's like they get a free pass or something.

    You know?
    Then again aren't you dismissing the 'T' perspective here by assuming that people and how they feel is everything there is to consider?
    Sometimes you can act in a way that makes everybody feel good and it leads to 'bad outcomes' people choose not to look at.

    I'd rather be cold before being engaged than make choices based on shortsighted easy choices about internalized projection of someone else's feelings you do not know.
    and if you say you do well. then look at how easy it was for you to just put 'T' types in the 'out group' to project your frustration through a stereotype and put 'F' types in the good team.

    You might call that the 'you are being an asshole' seen from the 'T' side if we're still talking in cliches and projections. Welcome to the other side of the rainbow.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  6. #246
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    I believe when you deal with natural biological processes of life (and death), there is a way that is meant to be. Of course, since we have higher level thinking and free will, we might try to change this reality to effect an outcome we might deem superior. But a million years of evolution is hard to better. So there is a way that is more 'meant to be.' And that is the way most rooted in nature. Ask yourself how would this happen in nature, or in the most natural way possible, and you will likely find the answer for the best outcome.


    EDIT: And I think you, or others, are taking my opinion as proselytizing. I am not expecting, nor trying, to change anyone's mind. Which is why I often use the terms 'my opinion,' 'I believe,' or etc. Why do you view it at trying to convert?
    That's one of the most amoral things I've heard coming from someone whom I don't consider to be so ethically retarded as to be irrelevant (yet worrying in a democratic system).
    It's natural to die in wars then
    It's natural to die of a damn cold after decades of life?
    It's natural to die of old age because that's the right balance of change in culture and genotype to race against the environmental changes while taking in and passing enough knowledge to make the slow development to adulthood and slow accumulation of skills worthwhile?
    Is there any goodness in a scale being balanced?
    Is there really any goodness in decay just for the sake of perpetuating a cycle which doesnt make any sense nowadays given that we are gaining the ability to replace the very same nature that has condemned us to death, sickness and decay for the sake of a fucking competition for resources in an environment with changing parameters?

    Or do you just pick and choose what is natural based not on the actual numbers but on what you think agrees with your theory of what should be? Then why is there even a universe, we were so much better in the good old days in a soup of electrons, in the cosmological dark ages.

    ARE YOU FOR REAL ?
    Last edited by EcK; 06-25-2012 at 06:59 PM.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  7. #247
    Was E.laur Laurie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    The more interesting question is: When is it justified to bring a new life into this world knowing that it will suffer?
    When is it justified not having as many children as possible knowing that you are denying your offspring pleasure?

    Is your highest priority to avoid suffering?

    Suicide:
    I think killing yourself over internal pain is different from killing yourself because of external terminal pain.

    First is not justified because life changes drastically, second can be justified.

  8. #248
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    Thats silly. Unselfish assumes intent leading to the aforementioned.
    It's silly of you to assume I was measuring it subjectively.
    -----------------

    A man builds. A parasite asks 'Where is my share?'
    A man creates. A parasite says, 'What will the neighbors think?'
    A man invents. A parasite says, 'Watch out, or you might tread on the toes of God... '


    -----------------

  9. #249
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    It's silly of you to assume I was measuring it objectively.
    intent is subjective. anymore humorous tidbits to share with the rest of us ?
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  10. #250
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    Then again aren't you dismissing the 'T' perspective here by assuming that people and how they feel is everything there is to consider?
    Sometimes you can act in a way that makes everybody feel good and it leads to 'bad outcomes' people choose not to look at.

    I'd rather be cold before being engaged than make choices based on shortsighted easy choices about internalized projection of someone else's feelings you do not know.
    and if you say you do well. then look at how easy it was for you to just put 'T' types in the 'out group' to project your frustration through a stereotype and put 'F' types in the good team.

    You might call that the 'you are being an asshole' seen from the 'T' side if we're still talking in cliches and projections. Welcome to the other side of the rainbow.
    I'm not sure what you are meaning here. I'm stereotyping, yes, that some people--esp T types perhaps--can get away with being brusque and blunt in general society more easily than F types can....and this extends to men as well. People doing the 'excusing' don't realize they are making allowances for 'T types' as most do not know typology. But there does seem to be a consensus that it's easier to tolerate chronic rudeness in our society than emo bursts of rudeness or assertiveness, and it's almost admired when harsh 'T types' are nice, versus an overall niceness and warmth of 'F types.' If that is too stereotypical for you, just sub in harsh person for nice person in place of T type and F type, respectively. In other words, it's cool to say the rude guy is really 'nice' underneath it all.


    Am I the only one who's run in to this phenomenon?


    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    That's one of the most amoral things I've heard coming from someone who I don't consider to be so ethically retarded as to be irrelevant (yet worrying in a democratic system).
    It's natural to die in wars then
    It's natural to die of a damn cold after decades of life?
    It's natural to die of old age because that's the right balance of change in culture and genotype to race against the environmental changes while taking in and passing enough knowledge not make the slow development to adulthood and slow accumulation of skills worthwhile?
    Is there any goodness in a scale being balanced?
    Is there really any goodness in decay just for the sake of perpetuating a cycle which doesnt make any sense nowadays given that we are gaining the ability to replace the very same nature that has condemned us to death, sickness and decay for the sake of a fucking competition for resources in an environment with changing parameters?
    I'm not sure what you are arguing for here. It is natural, and best for most, to die a natural death is my main assertion. Why is that so confusing? Hell, we are so effed up we don't even know how to die anymore. There used to be a ritual when someone died and now our ritual is to pump him full of chemicals before he dies, then pump him full of chemicals after he dies as well. And in the meantime, to put him out of his misery. lol.

    Or do you just pick and choose what is natural based not on the actual numbers but on what you think agrees with your theory of what should be? Then why is there even a universe, we were so much better in the good old days in a soup of electrons, in the cosmological dark ages.

    ARE YOU FOR REAL ?
    Aww come on now Baby. It's relatively easy to know what is natural, no? Of course we have free will to alter nature, which is what we do. I'm just saying I rarely think that makes things better. And don't worry, we will return to that soupy energy soon enough. But I'll be there with you, so no worries.
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