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  1. #221
    Anew Leaf
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    The more interesting question is: When is it justified to bring a new life into this world knowing that it will suffer?
    Are you referring to a baby that will be born with a genetic or environmental disease that will cause its life to be unpleasant? Or in the general sense of that life is suffering?

  2. #222
    Temporal Mechanic. Lexicon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    I agree. I love to talk about all things.


    I just dislike having to apologize about my style. Perhaps you touched on a nerve. Why can ExTJs get away with being asses but I get called on simple stating a vociferous opinion. Not just speaking to you, speaking in general.

    Why do the rudest and crudest people get lauded for 'having a heart of gold, if you only knew him' but someone who truly cares about others all the time, and wants the best for humanity, gets called a bitch for stating her opinion? Why is that?
    Ah I don't think you're a bitch at all.

    Regarding the other types having a heart of gold, etc-- I think it may come from some difference in delivery- Perhaps because certain types tend to be more overtly diplomatic & careful of stepping on others' space for personal values most of the time, when we do step up & speak our minds- be it stating a belief- or questioning one- it can come off as more abrasive than if, say, a Thinker were to approach the topic.. if that makes sense. Some subtle difference in phrasing, perhaps?
    03/23 06:06:58 EcK: lex
    03/23 06:06:59 EcK: lex
    03/23 06:21:34 Nancynobullets: LEXXX *sacrifices a first born*
    03/23 06:21:53 Nancynobullets: We summon yooouuu
    03/23 06:29:07 Lexicon: I was sleeping!



    04/25 04:20:35 Patches: Don't listen to lex. She wants to birth a litter of kittens. She doesnt get to decide whats creepy

    02/16 23:49:38 ygolo: Lex is afk
    02/16 23:49:45 Cimarron: she's doing drugs with Jack

    03/05 19:27:41 Time: You can't make chat morbid. Lex does it naturally.

  3. #223
    Senior Member Eileen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    Actually, yes. I am averse to most meds unless a person really needs them to function in daily life.

    Though I give those meds as a nurse. I disagree with doing so. But then, I disagree with pretty much everything in our medical system and way of life.
    Two things:
    1. It must be hard to do a job where you disagree with everything! I am interested to know how you (particularly as an INFJ but also as a human being) keep it up.
    2. If a person's near the end of a very painful illness (I acknowledge that there are some that are not painful, but there are certainly some that are), what does "functioning" look like, anyway? Isn't daily life different when a person is dying?

    I think the best thing is to have true informed consent, and education about choices, before a person reaches that point. Like living wills, except more explicit. Most people don't think about becoming brain damaged, or know what long-term care involves if they do. Since we are removed from contemplating death except in sensationalizing it, we need to sort of go out of our way to deal with it. Unlike earlier societies that were more intimate with death and dying, and didn't have as much technology to keep people alive, etc.
    Some people are going to say, though, if they ever become so brain damaged that they aren't themselves (and perhaps they will outline what that means, precisely) or can't "function" anymore (also outlined, hopefully), that they want their lives ended in a humane way (also outlined). Not everybody is going to make the same decisions for him or herself around the topic of end-of-life choices, even if everybody gets the exact same accurate information.

    Ultimately, I believe in people's free liberty to do as they like. But when those liberties rub against others (as it does when others must keep someone else alive), we need to be doing a better job at defining what that should/would look like I think.
    I concur. So, I think I hear you saying that you believe that there is an ideal way to die and feel strongly that people ought to want that, but you wouldn't make the choice for them?
    INFJ

    "I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. You can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be. This is the interrelated structure of reality." -Martin Luther King, Jr.

  4. #224
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    Suicide means you are making the overpopulation a lesser problem without disrespecting the integrity of other people. It's the ultimate unselfish act a person can make.*




    *This is not my real opinion; I was just showing that it's possible to defend that ''suicide is good''. And if you are a suicidal person, take into account that you only have one life, and try to recognize that (imo) it is in your best interest to remain alive.
    Thanks.
    Last edited by Rasofy; 06-25-2012 at 01:30 AM. Reason: Inferior Fe
    -----------------

    A man builds. A parasite asks 'Where is my share?'
    A man creates. A parasite says, 'What will the neighbors think?'
    A man invents. A parasite says, 'Watch out, or you might tread on the toes of God... '


    -----------------

  5. #225
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    I don't really care though. Though I do appreciate your input and kindness to observe and state.


    And, no, there is a real acceptance of assholery in our society. Perhaps you haven't noticed. An absolutely abrasive guy can get away with being an ass, and as long as he's occasionally nice, then everyone is like, "Oh, he's really a gem." I think, in saying this, it's mostly Fi type women excusing T type men. Or Fi type women excusing T type women. F types cannot get away with being abrasive like T types can. It's like they get a free pass or something.

    You know?
    Ni/Ti/Fe/Si
    4w5 5w4 1w9
    ~Torah observant, Christ inspired~
    Life Path 11

    The more one loves God, the more it is that having nothing in the world means everything, and the less one loves God, the more it is that having everything in the world means nothing.

    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

    songofmary.wordpress.com


  6. #226
    Temporal Mechanic. Lexicon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    I don't really care though. Though I do appreciate your input and kindness to observe and state.


    And, no, there is a real acceptance of assholery in our society. Perhaps you haven't noticed. An absolutely abrasive guy can get away with being an ass, and as long as he's occasionally nice, then everyone is like, "Oh, he's really a gem." I think, in saying this, it's mostly Fi type women excusing T type men. Or Fi type women excusing T type women. F types cannot get away with being abrasive like T types can. It's like they get a free pass or something.

    You know?
    I'm guilty of letting T types be asses- but it always felt like that's how they're built- their intentions in saying what they do, at times, seems benign- I end up chocking it up to them being slightly retarded in the empathy dept. Perhaps that's why F's get a more startled response.. we're expected to be consistently diplomatic, since we often have more developed empathy/emotional insight, etc. With us it may seem like a conscious disregard for the feelings of others, vs a Thinker's disregard just being a biproduct of their naturally more detached processing.
    03/23 06:06:58 EcK: lex
    03/23 06:06:59 EcK: lex
    03/23 06:21:34 Nancynobullets: LEXXX *sacrifices a first born*
    03/23 06:21:53 Nancynobullets: We summon yooouuu
    03/23 06:29:07 Lexicon: I was sleeping!



    04/25 04:20:35 Patches: Don't listen to lex. She wants to birth a litter of kittens. She doesnt get to decide whats creepy

    02/16 23:49:38 ygolo: Lex is afk
    02/16 23:49:45 Cimarron: she's doing drugs with Jack

    03/05 19:27:41 Time: You can't make chat morbid. Lex does it naturally.

  7. #227
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lexicon View Post
    I'm guilty of letting T types be asses- but it always felt like that's how they're built- their intentions in saying what they do, at times, seems benign- I end up chocking it up to them being slightly retarded in the empathy dept. Perhaps that's why F's get a more startled response.. we're expected to be consistently diplomatic, since we often have more developed empathy/emotional insight, etc. With us it may seem like a conscious disregard for the feelings of others, vs a Thinker's disregard just being a biproduct of their naturally more detached processing.
    Well, that may be. But whatever it is, it's bullshit.
    Ni/Ti/Fe/Si
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    ~Torah observant, Christ inspired~
    Life Path 11

    The more one loves God, the more it is that having nothing in the world means everything, and the less one loves God, the more it is that having everything in the world means nothing.

    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

    songofmary.wordpress.com


  8. #228
    Senior Member Eileen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    Suicide means you are making the overpopulation a lesser problem without disrespecting the integrity of other people. It's the ultimate unselfish act a person can make.
    I think that actions can have a variety of motivations that we might label selfish or unselfish. I wouldn't assume that all or even most people who choose to end their lives are necessarily concerned with overpopulation.
    INFJ

    "I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. You can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be. This is the interrelated structure of reality." -Martin Luther King, Jr.

  9. #229
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen View Post
    Two things:
    1. It must be hard to do a job where you disagree with everything! I am interested to know how you (particularly as an INFJ but also as a human being) keep it up.
    I'm used to it. It is my life. I have disagreed with most everything our society does, and the way we live, for my whole life. I do my own stuff differently, which is what keeps me sane. If they wanna pay me to perpetuate the fucked up system,... okay.

    2. If a person's near the end of a very painful illness (I acknowledge that there are some that are not painful, but there are certainly some that are), what does "functioning" look like, anyway? Isn't daily life different when a person is dying?
    Everyone's so hung up on pain. I see more pain in younger people who have more musculoskeletal problems or osteoarthritis than I see in people near the end of their life. Things that are worse than pain are not being able to breathe, not being able to move because you cannot process oxygen, not being able to swallow because you will choke and/or get pneumonia, falling and breaking things and being confined to one position in bed, brain damage, just to name a few.


    End of life functioning looks like the beginning of the end. A person begins withdrawing from life. It is a process, and one that is documented. A person might begin to seclude themselves from others more and more. Might go inside their head more and more. Stop talking to others. Stay in their room. Not watch media. Close their eyes. Sleep more. Usually they become debilitated enough that they have some sort of accident or injury that makes them bedridden. Then they get infections, start retaining fluid, get hemostatis, and eventually get into a coma like state. It's a withdrawing into mind and into the beyond. I think during this process they began rerunning their life's tapes; remembering their life. They don't seem to care if others are around fairly early in this process. Even though others want to be with them when they pass. By that time they have become so One with themselves and the other side, that they don't notice nor care much, though I'm sure they register it on some heartfelt-loving plane.

    So, you see, to invade in this process is so obtrusive and dastardly, to me it's repugnant and ugly. And an ultimate thievery and disruption of a person's final bit of life.


    Some people are going to say, though, if they ever become so brain damaged that they aren't themselves (and perhaps they will outline what that means, precisely) or can't "function" anymore (also outlined, hopefully), that they want their lives ended in a humane way (also outlined). Not everybody is going to make the same decisions for him or herself around the topic of end-of-life choices, even if everybody gets the exact same accurate information.
    I'm sure they will. I've heard to starve to death is not very pretty. But I've never seen it, so I don't really know. I am not sure how starving of thirst is. But the alternative of a feeding tube starts one on an even more slippery slope.


    I concur. So, I think I hear you saying that you believe that there is an ideal way to die and feel strongly that people ought to want that, but you wouldn't make the choice for them?
    Agreed. Unless I was in some position I had to. Then I would make the best decision possible.
    Ni/Ti/Fe/Si
    4w5 5w4 1w9
    ~Torah observant, Christ inspired~
    Life Path 11

    The more one loves God, the more it is that having nothing in the world means everything, and the less one loves God, the more it is that having everything in the world means nothing.

    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

    songofmary.wordpress.com


  10. #230
    Senior Member UniqueMixture's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    I agree. I love to talk about all things.


    I just dislike having to apologize about my style. Perhaps you touched on a nerve. Why can ExTJs get away with being asses but I get called on simple stating a vociferous opinion. Not just speaking to you, speaking in general.

    Why do the rudest and crudest people get lauded for 'having a heart of gold, if you only knew him' but someone who truly cares about others all the time, and wants the best for humanity, gets called a bitch for stating her opinion? Why is that?
    If you always give people what they want they will become upset if you take it away from them. Morality is absolute and relative not one or the other.
    For all that we have done, as a civilization, as individuals, the universe is not stable, and nor is any single thing within it. Stars consume themselves, the universe itself rushes apart, and we ourselves are composed of matter in constant flux. Colonies of cells in temporary alliance, replicating and decaying and housed within, an incandescent cloud of electrical impulses. This is reality, this is self knowledge, and the perception of it will, of course, make you dizzy.

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