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  1. #141
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synarch View Post
    There's no question that suicide is traumatic to the people in the family or friend circle. I think this is what keeps many people from doing it, quite honestly. But, also, there are those times when you simply stop caring. This is radically egocentric, but I don't think it's necessarily criminally selfish to commit suicide. You could certainly do so in a way that diminished the pain for others, but I do think that suicidal thinking often discounts the social sphere so this impairment, which is necessary for suicide, would probably not operation in a way to allow you to spare others pain by planning your suicide in a responsible way.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I don't think it's necessarily criminal either; the most we can do is track the probable reverberations, but I'm not sure why morality is being dragged into it as a universal principle. People often guilt-trip the suicidal as inflicting hurt on others because they are somehow robbing the world of their capacity to give, yet are not considering how the group is robbing the individual of their capacity of choice as well as forcing them to suffer through difficult circumstances they themselves often are unable or unwilling to alleviate. (At its worst, it can remind me of pro-choice or pro-life people back in the 80's trying to force young women to follow their particular path via guilt trip, without doing anything to alleviate the difficulties or suffering they will face by choosing the offered course of action.)

    I also don't know what sort of precedent this sets in terms of considering other actions immoral. The hurt of suicide occurs due to a change in relationship; are other changes in relationship (such as breaking up with a LTR) also now necessarily immoral? A person is being blamed for exercising their will to choose an end to their involvement (rather than choosing continual unbearable suffering), in opposition to others who don't want that choice to occur, in order to spare those others pain. Again, I'm not sure a moral judgment is appropriate; all that can be said is what the impact of either choice might have.

    (The main challenge to this sort of stance, of course, is the question of thoughtful capacity: Is a suicidal person in a state of mind to make a coherent decision? This probably can differ from individual to individual.)

    I'm not one for easy answers when there are conflicting 'goods' involved, even if the conflict is painful.
    If this is in reference to my post, my statement does not describe any kind of universal morality. I also did not use the words, "criminally selfish" - those were added in response. The majority of statements describe ways in which the suicidal individual is more often incapacitated. It is true that a healthy response to inward imploding with depression is to look outward and be empowered by help that one can offer. I realize this statement refers to a more clique', universal idea, but that is not how I am using it. I use is as one of the scenarios, which is clear in the context of my original post. Even if it doesn't apply universally, it can bring a relatively healthy person back into a state of inner strength. This does not mean submitting to an oppressive social group, as it can also mean leaving one's current situation entirely.

    We exist on many levels, the individual being one of those levels. There are consequences on multiple levels, the individual being one of those levels. Every person and culture weighs these with different strengths.

    The idea of suicide can be used for a great deal of harm - it can be the most effective form of emotional blackmail. (not speaking of my experience per se). It can be done as directly causing hurt and punishment. It isn't one thing which is clear to anyone who has had any sort of encounter with it.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
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  2. #142
    Once Was Synarch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Annwn View Post
    If this is in reference to my post, my statement does not describe any kind of universal morality. The majority of statements describe ways in which the suicidal individual is more often incapacitated. It is true that a healthy response to inward imploding with depression is to look outward and be empowered by help that one can offer. I realize this statement refers to a more clique', universal idea, but that is not how I am using it. I use is as one of the scenarios, which is clear in the context of my original post. Even if it doesn't apply universally, it can bring a relatively healthy person back into a state of inner strength. This does not mean submitting to an oppressive social group, as it can also mean leaving one's current situation entirely. We exist on many levels, the individual being one of those levels. There are consequences on multiple levels, the individual being one of those levels. Every person and culture weighs these with different strengths.
    The last bit is especially resonant to me. It is probably helpful to try to explore those different consequences, because as you have said, it is a problem with multiple dimensions. And, even acknowledging this can lend perspective. Suicide seems to often involve an extremely narrow perspective. A narrow perspective of time, of feeling, of subjectivity. It's very interesting that way. It is like a mental cul de sac of sorts.

    The idea of suicide can be used for a great deal of harm - it can be the most effective form of emotional blackmail. (not speaking of my experience per se). It can be done as directly causing hurt and punishment. It isn't one thing which is clear to anyone who has had any sort of encounter with it.
    The emotional blackmail aspect is worth exploring. I think anger factors often in suicides. Anger with one's self, anger with others. Suicide can be like the internalization of extreme anger and bitterness.
    "Create like a god, command like a king, work like a slave."

  3. #143
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Annwn View Post
    If this is in reference to my post, my statement does not describe any kind of universal morality.
    I was springboarding off small portions of your comments, but I wasn't referring specifically to them or I would have quoted you as you did me. Instead, I quoted Synarch, who i was directly referring to.

    So I'm not sure a clarification is necessary, it seems self-evident.

    Quote Originally Posted by Synarch
    The emotional blackmail aspect is worth exploring. I think anger factors often in suicides. Anger with one's self, anger with others. Suicide can be like the internalization of extreme anger and bitterness.
    So what are some viable sources/types of anger that suicidal people might experience? Why would they be angry, potentially?
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #144
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I found it interesting that Jennifer talked about that overwhelcoming feeling of numbness. When people's attachment needs are not met, the brain automatically tries to protect them from a vulnerability too great to bear by numbing them. This normally would be a temporary state, much like getting news of someone's death, or the body going into shock after an accident. However, when it goes on for a long time, it is like an emotional alarm bell sounding without anyone attending to it. It is not even recognized for what it is and instead results in people feeling restless or agitated (often referred to as boredom) without them even knowing why they feel that way. Even physical sensation is dulled. Because they are no longer as sensitive to what could hurt them, it is also easier to walk into the middle of dangerous or wounding situations without even realizing it, which further numbs them. In more advanced stages, the person becomes tearless and fearless, taking increasingly larger risks, just to feel something. This may take the form of self-harm, or other reckless behaviour. In some cases suicide is the ultimate risk.

    While suicide happens for a variety of reasons, I believe that it very often stems from a sense of aggression that is very deep-seated. That aggression can take one of two paths (or both) - aggression against self, or aggression against others. The reason for these deep feelings of aggression is frustration caused by doing the same thing over and over that does not work. The results are very frustrating, and yet the person is not able to accept the futility of persuing the goal or the course of action that they have chosen. It is only when they come to a place of futility, tears and acceptance of what actually is, that they can decide what they are going to now do instead, and thereby become both adaptable and resilient.

    In children, the primary factor that allows children to develop this ability is attachment to a strong adult acting from an alpha position. As an adult, many people have not learned to receive either protection, provision or proximity from other people and trust if they never received enough of that at crucial points in their life. Therefore, to get to a point where they are not constantly feeling aggression against themselves and others is recognizing the futility of chasing what they didn't get at key points earlier in life. Then they can then be open to other solutions that would allow them to accept what they need now or to follow a new and more effective course of action.

    I certainly wouldn't be confident enough to say this fits absolutely everyone who commits suicide, but I do believe these factors have an impact in many suicide situations.

  5. #145
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    While suicide happens for a variety of reasons, I believe that it very often stems from a sense of aggression that is very deep-seated. That aggression can take one of two paths (or both) - aggression against self, or aggression against others. The reason for these deep feelings of aggression is frustration caused by doing the same thing over and over that does not work. The results are very frustrating, and yet the person is not able to accept the futility of persuing the goal or the course of action that they have chosen. It is only when they come to a place of futility, tears and acceptance of what actually is, that they can decide what they are going to now do instead, and thereby become both adaptable and resilient.
    Wow. I found this insightful. I have noticed that people often communicate their inner feelings by instilling them in the other person. What you describe here is exactly what I came to feel in my attempt to help a depressive, suicidal person. That's really interesting.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

    I want to be just like my mother, even if she is bat-shit crazy.

  6. #146
    Once Was Synarch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    So what are some viable sources/types of anger that suicidal people might experience? Why would they be angry, potentially?
    I don't think the cause of anger is as important as the expression of it. The emotions are rarely necessary to criticize only the expression of emotions. For example, I might feel wounded, unreasonably so, but the feeling is not the problem or the thing we should criticize. The expression of the feeling is the locus of concern. I honestly don't have a lot of experience with suicidal people, but quite often I see that it can be a response to a feeling of being burdened.
    "Create like a god, command like a king, work like a slave."

  7. #147
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Annwn View Post
    Wow. I found this insightful. I have noticed that people often communicate their inner feelings by instilling them in the other person. What you describe here is exactly what I came to feel in my attempt to help a depressive, suicidal person. That's really interesting.
    I've run up against this too. I think that when you can trace these feelings of numbness or aggression back to their cause, then maybe there is some hope of an effective course of action. The hard thing I've found though is that when a person is suffering from these issues, they often also find it difficult to temper their emotions. Whichever one is strongest at that moment is the one that is expressed, even if they may feel the other emotion or emotions separately afterwards. This leaves them open to acting impulsively on a feeling that may dissipate fairly quickly later on. They also tend to find it hard to endure the short term difficulties/fears/obstacles so that they can reach the long term prize. In all of these cases, I believe the only cure is strong emotional attachments. Then they go through the process of growing up wherever it was previously interrupted. It is difficult for an adult who has had reason not to develop trust to be willing to revisit what happened in such a way that they can face its futility and move on. Until they do this, it is hard for them to absorb all the love and care that others want to give them. It is impossible to receive love or care, without there being an element of trust present. For this reason, I think people need to go about creating attachments in more superficial/smaller/less vulnerable ways and then work up from there.

    One of the keys I've also found is the need for looking outward. When a person learns to focus on what they can be thankful for, and also to not fixate on their own feelings, needs, wants, fears, anger etc, I think it helps to dissipate it and transform those problems into something that is of use, rather than a hindrance. Most self-centred behaviour is very rejecting of other people and it makes it difficult then for them to be a part of that person's cheering section over the longterm. Sometimes starting with a pet or a child opens the door for a little bit of vulnerability and ability to give/receive love that can be expanded and added to.

  8. #148
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synarch View Post
    I don't think the cause of anger is as important as the expression of it. The emotions are rarely necessary to criticize only the expression of emotions. For example, I might feel wounded, unreasonably so, but the feeling is not the problem or the thing we should criticize. The expression of the feeling is the locus of concern. I honestly don't have a lot of experience with suicidal people, but quite often I see that it can be a response to a feeling of being burdened.
    I'm not sure I agree with the cause not being important, but I am looking at it more from the angle of expressed emotions being a symptom of a deeper issue. Sometimes we are able to control the expression adequately without addressing deeper concerns; but often the emotion is driven by a particular expectation for another person... a way that we perceive the world that is either not accurate or not healthy. (or maybe those two are actually the same, if we consider health to be the ability to realistically perceive and deal with the world.) And we will not be able to permanently stifle or transform the negative expressed until we locate and confront the expectation or perspective problem first.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fidelia
    Because they are no longer as sensitive to what could hurt them, it is also easier to walk into the middle of dangerous or wounding situations without even realizing it, which further numbs them. In more advanced stages, the person becomes tearless and fearless, taking increasingly larger risks, just to feel something. This may take the form of self-harm, or other reckless behaviour. In some cases suicide is the ultimate risk.
    Nice post altogether, Fid.

    I think along with this comes compulsive/addictive behavior as well -- for the reason of, as you say, "just to feel something." When I was so depressed, I struggled with compulsive behaviors of all types because it was only way I could momentarily feel a rush. And I hated feeling like my behavior was compulsive, I felt enslaved, but no matter how I tried, I just couldn't seem to stop getting hooked on SOMETHING. Often I would stop doing one thing, and something else would take its place soon after. It was only after I changed my circumstances and got out of my depression that my compulsions eased tremendously. I no longer needed them to remind myself I was alive.

    Note: compulsive behavior = another excuse for self-loathing.

    While suicide happens for a variety of reasons, I believe that it very often stems from a sense of aggression that is very deep-seated. That aggression can take one of two paths (or both) - aggression against self, or aggression against others. The reason for these deep feelings of aggression is frustration caused by doing the same thing over and over that does not work. The results are very frustrating, and yet the person is not able to accept the futility of persuing the goal or the course of action that they have chosen. It is only when they come to a place of futility, tears and acceptance of what actually is, that they can decide what they are going to now do instead, and thereby become both adaptable and resilient.
    Interesting. I don't know if that is the only reason for aggression resulting in self-violence (or indirect other-violence), but it definitely sounds like a viable reason in itself. Kudos on the last part -- yes, that is the key. As long as people avoid the natural cycle of grief, they can never reach a position of strength and coherence; they are spending their energies in a denial of reality and living in a world that does not exist.

    In children, the primary factor that allows children to develop this ability is attachment to a strong adult acting from an alpha position. As an adult, many people have not learned to receive either protection, provision or proximity from other people and trust if they never received enough of that at crucial points in their life. Therefore, to get to a point where they are not constantly feeling aggression against themselves and others is recognizing the futility of chasing what they didn't get at key points earlier in life. Then they can then be open to other solutions that would allow them to accept what they need now or to follow a new and more effective course of action.
    Now you're scaring me.

    Because I'm not numb now, I've actually experienced upwellings of direct anger at various people from my past, and have had to work through what that means. Usually it was because they didn't give me what I thought was a legitimate need.... and I would have said long before this that I did feel stranded as a child. My physical needs were provided for (which I do not want to downplay), but intellectually and emotionally and creatively I not only felt like I was on my own but that I was also parenting my own parents. And while I think there is a lot of truth to that, at the moment I'm having to perceive, accept, and work through the anger rising in me of a child who felt her legitimate needs were not being met (and still aren't now, in those relationships).

    Awareness is necessary for those negative emotions to expose themselves directly. Otherwise it will express itself mostly indirectly, along with a few big direct explosions along the way if the pressure becomes too unbearable. (Either that, or the numbness grows deeper in order to stifle the stronger negative emotions.)

    I think healing's less a linear process and more a cyclical one. i think we make progress, which then opens us up to more awareness, which raises more emotions to deal with, which lets us get even more awareness, and so on... and so we start the cycle over and over again until we finally shoot out the other side (hopefully).

    The hard thing I've found though is that when a person is suffering from these issues, they often also find it difficult to temper their emotions.
    At work might also be the reality that, for so long, those emotions were forced to remain hidden and the person was living a lie. Once things open up enough that those emotions can be expressed, it becomes a matter of integrity as well as self-respect to not want to just smother/deflate them again. I remember experience legitimate anger that, because of suppression, I had never been allowed to express; and it would piss me off so much that, when I was finally expressing it rather than trying to be "demure" that people would act as if the expression of my anger was somehow worse than the repression of my hurt. It was as if they were fine with me suffering in silence, but heaven forbid I allow them to experience the ramifications of problems in our relationship rather than just carrying it all silently on my shoulders again.

    So yes... there can be lots of anger under there; and among other things, I can see self-destruction as either an act of violence against oneself for being too weak to defend oneself or an emotional blow against those who have been oppressive.

    Quote Originally Posted by annwn
    Wow. I found this insightful. I have noticed that people often communicate their inner feelings by instilling them in the other person. What you describe here is exactly what I came to feel in my attempt to help a depressive, suicidal person. That's really interesting.
    Are you describing a type of projection, or something else entirely here?

    Interestingly, nowadays, I get REALLY frustrated dealing with suicidal people. I want to be patient, and think I should be after wrestling with things so long in my own life, but I think I just see that there is no way through other than .... moving through. Sitting in that dead zone, I know from experience, is simply a waiting period; there will be no change; one eventually either chooses to act or chooses to die; there are no miracle cures or silver bullets. It's hard for me to listen to the indecision and cyclical reasoning, to the ambivalence and veiled anger, because I know it's unproductive and will only make things worse if it is not being used to work through awareness. To break the cycle, you have to leave the circle and start moving in a straight line.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #149
    What is, is. Arthur Schopenhauer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synarch View Post
    Why should we be concerned with wasting time? Time is an illusion anyway, isn't it?
    An illusion? What...?
    INTJ | 5w4 - Sp/Sx/So | 5-4-(9/1) | RLoEI | Melancholic-Choleric | Johari & Nohari

    This will not end well...
    But it will at least be poetic, I suppose...

    Hmm... But what if it does end well?
    Then I suppose it will be a different sort of poetry, a preferable sort...
    A sort I could become accustomed to...



  10. #150
    Once Was Synarch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Schopenhauer View Post
    An illusion? What...?
    The linear experience of time is an illusion based on our limited perspective.
    "Create like a god, command like a king, work like a slave."

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