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Interfaith Marriage and Children

Beorn

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:laugh:

Not all of us can agree with that pereception of reality, friend. We are more than capable of developing a moral compass without stories of yore to tell us what is good or evil. It's called independent thought.

That's fine if you want to have independent thought, but you must recognize the reality of that belief system. If there is nothing to determine good outside of yourself then effort to support the good is really only an effort to exert your own force and indluence on the world and is devoid of any moral meaning.

Which means the original statement should read:

"Teaching people that religion is a made up fantasy for entertainment, identity, and sociological reasons is a good thing what I prefer and desire for other people."
 
R

Riva

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The fact that it's the 21st century is irrelevant. If people have seemingly vastly different views yet don't have an issue living happily together then they obviously really have the same views.

Two people could be of different religions but could have the same views. Vise versa. So if the OP and her hubby has the same views it would probably be a happy ending.
 

Lexicon

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That's fine if you want to have independent thought, but you must recognize the reality of that belief system. If there is nothing to determine good outside of yourself then effort to support the good is really only an effort to exert your own force and indluence on the world and is devoid of any moral meaning.

Which means the original statement should read:

"Teaching people that religion is a made up fantasy for entertainment, identity, and sociological reasons is a good thing what I prefer and desire for other people."

You realise how many athiestic and agnostic people there are in the world?

Who or what in your mind dictates or defines this seemingly ''objective'' sense of moral meaning?
 

Lexicon

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What are you getting at?
God

I was trying to understand what appeared to be your personal assumption that without some collective & agreed upon understanding of reality [insert _religion_ here] & well developed value system based upon this, that anything else is meaningless. I mean, following that ''logic,'' people who do not follow a religion but instead are collectively open to other possibilities in this universe- and have similarly developed moral compasses - by your stated reasoning - they do support one another, thereby similarly validating and reinforcing their moral standards the same way a religious group may. It's just less indoctrinated/structured, at times, so perhaps it's hard for those who follow a religion by-the-book, to really grasp that concept. Understandable, as it does challenge their entire sense of reality.

What is God?
 

Beorn

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I was trying to understand what appeared to be your personal assumption that without some collective & agreed upon understanding of reality & well developed value system based upon this, that anything else is meaningless. I mean, following that ''logic,'' people who do not follow a religion but instead are collectively open to other possibilities in this universe- and have similarly developed moral compasses - by your stated reasoning - they do support one another, thereby similarly validating and reinforcing their moral standards the same way a religious group may. It's just less indoctrinated/structured, at times, so perhaps it's hard for those who follow a religion by-the-book, to really grasp that concept. Understandable, as it does challenge their entire sense of reality.

You're completely missing my point because you are so wrapped up in your own worldview that you aren't open-minded enough to realize I believe something fundamentally different from you and have different presumptions from you.

A "collective and agreed upon understanding of reality" is not sufficient to justify moral assertions. Not when those moral assertions are made in a post-Christian culture which still presumes Good actually has inherent meaning and value.

What is God?

God is the great I AM.

Last time I checked, the definition of God and it's associated authority was still subjective and dependent on whom was attempting to defining it. :coffee:

You're really such a slave to your own world view and can't think outside of it to realize what I'm getting at, can you?

My thinking and atheistic/agnostic thinking both have subjective elements. The difference is that I believe in an objective good outside of myself. Regardless of whether there is an objective good outside of myself the fact remains that when an atheist/agnostic speaks with moral authority they are being inconsistent and hypocritical. When I appeal to moral authority I might be wrong, but at least I'm internally consistent.

So who's being irrational here?
 

Lexicon

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You're completely missing my point because you are so wrapped up in your own worldview that you aren't open-minded enough to realize I believe something fundamentally different from you and have different presumptions from you.

A "collective and agreed upon understanding of reality" is not sufficient to justify moral assertions. Not when those moral assertions are made in a post-Christian culture which still presumes Good actually has inherent meaning and value.



God is the great I AM.

I'm totally open to your interpretation of reality, I can't objectively say there's anything ''wrong'' with it- I just don't personally relate to it, so was trying to understand the lines of reasoning in your mind that lead you to your conclusions about this world.

If trying to understand a different perspective is narrow-minded, then what precisely is open?

I'm suddenly reminded of the chastising I received when I raised similar questions, attending church, in my youth. Questions only seem to provoke hostility and indignation.
 

1487610420

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You're really such a slave to your own world view and can't think outside of it to realize what I'm getting at, can you?
Do you really want an answer to that?
My thinking and atheistic/agnostic thinking both have subjective elements. The difference is that I believe in an objective good outside of myself. Regardless of whether there is an objective good outside of myself the fact remains that when an atheist/agnostic speaks with moral authority they are being inconsistent and hypocritical. When I appeal to moral authority I might be wrong, but at least I'm internally consistent.
So who's being irrational here?
Read above.
 

Laurie

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My mom was Jewish and my dad was Christian and we were raised Christian. My mother decided to go back to Judaism in her 30s and was basically told "too bad, so sad, you didn't practice as an adult and didn't raise your children as Jews (and didn't have the adoption ceremony as a baby), you can't get back into it." She's an atheist now.

My cousin married a muslim and converted to Islam as is raising his children as muslims.

The people who are saying since you are both theists you should raise your kids as non-theists is a bit strange. It's not an unacceptable option but it's also not a stronger choice than many others.

The argument that "well atheism is right and christians and muslims are wrong" doesn't sound any more clued in than some theists that argue they are "right because they are right"
 

UniqueMixture

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You're being contradictory.

Without religion there is no such thing as a "good thing."

tumblr_l7921d5J701qbyk0a.jpg


What is conducive for self-replicating, holistic, open-ended outcomes.
 

Beorn

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I'm totally open to your interpretation of reality, I can't objectively say there's anything ''wrong'' with it- I just don't personally relate to it, so was trying to understand the lines of reasoning in your mind that lead you to your conclusions about this world.
Can you say that anything is objectively bad or good?


If trying to understand a different perspective is narrow-minded, then what precisely is open?

I'm suddenly reminded of the chastising I received when I raised similar questions, attending church, in my youth. Questions only seem to provoke hostility and indignation.

If you're trying to understand or ask questions you're going about it in a strange way. Your first interaction with me was to laugh at what I said. Then when you asked an ambiguous question (that was really a veiled argument) I asked you to clarify even though I wanted to argue against what I presumed you meant. Your response was not a clarification, but a presumption of what I meant which was followed by your condemning of what you thought I thought.

I'm sorry to make you feel chastised, but simply because you value open-mindedness doesn't mean you are always actually being open-minded.
 

UniqueMixture

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I don't understand what you're getting at.
Please explain.

What is good for yourself and others simultaneously on all levels. Like game theory. Things which maximize potential by combining many good things together. Processes that are self-cycling like the food chain or the water cycle. The "circle of life" if you will that is able to sustain many many contradictory processes within itself. Universal complexity.
 

Beorn

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What is good for yourself and others simultaneously on all levels. Like game theory. Things which maximize potential by combining many good things together. Processes that are self-cycling like the food chain or the water cycle. The "circle of life" if you will that is able to sustain many many contradictory processes within itself. Universal complexity.

My point is that without religion (or at least a God for deists) moral relativism is the only logical stance. You might be able to develop and build a more complex belief system like you just provided, but I don't see how this means anything if at the bottom of it every good is totally subjective. Even words like "maximize" and "potential" would be subjective outside of a created order. Universal complexity wouldn't have a higher value than that which is simple it's just different. It just is.
 

Lexicon

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Can you say that anything is objectively bad or good?




If you're trying to understand or ask questions you're going about it in a strange way. Your first interaction with me was to laugh at what I said. Then when you asked an ambiguous question (that was really a veiled argument) I asked you to clarify even though I wanted to argue against what I presumed you meant. Your response was not a clarification, but a presumption of what I meant which was followed by your condemning of what you thought I thought.

I'm sorry to make you feel chastised, but simply because you value open-mindedness doesn't mean you are always actually being open-minded.

I laughed because your post amused and confused me in terms of logical reasoning- it wasn't meant to offend.

You're reading between lines that don't exist; perhaps that's a kneejerk defensive reaction on your part- I don't know you well enough to conclude one way or the other; all I can do is reiterate my own motivations here.

I say what I mean exactly how I phrase it, and state my intentions. There's nothing to veil. I even clarified further in other posts to try to make sure you understood my objectives here, that I'm not trying to attack you or your values. I'm not here to convert, insult, or criticize. Only here to learn. Some people learn by asking questions that may challenge the standard they're examining.
 

ceecee

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The only couple I have ever seen do this successfully was a Jewish/Catholic couple with two kids. That's it. None of the others, and there were many, ever worked long term.
 

Beorn

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I laughed because your post amused and confused me in terms of logical reasoning- it wasn't meant to offend.

You're reading between lines that don't exist; perhaps that's a kneejerk defensive reaction on your part- I don't know you well enough to conclude one way or the other; all I can do is reiterate my own motivations here.

I say what I mean exactly how I phrase it, and state my intentions. There's nothing to veil. I even clarified further in other posts to try to make sure you understood my objectives here, that I'm not trying to attack you or your values. I'm not here to convert, insult, or criticize. Only here to learn. Some people learn by asking questions that may challenge the standard they're examining.

Ok, I'll take you at your word.

Do you understand where I'm coming from now?
Do you still believe my first two posts were illogical?
 

ZPowers

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This issue isn't living happy together. I know that is going to be easy :wubbie:

If this is true, the details of this issue will likely sort themselves out semi-naturally with one or two discussions on what you both want.

Personally, I would encourage the position some people have taken in encouraging your kids to have an open mind, and if they come to you with questions about any one belief system, you do your best to answer without prejudice, endorsement or bias (except in cases of inherently extreme or violent belief systems, of course). Regardless of what they believe in the end, it seems deeply unlikely to me that teaching a child to keep an open mind and rely on themselves to discover answers, even to some big questions, cannot possibly be a bad thing in the long run.
 
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