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  1. #21
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lexicon View Post


    Not all of us can agree with that pereception of reality, friend. We are more than capable of developing a moral compass without stories of yore to tell us what is good or evil. It's called independent thought.
    That's fine if you want to have independent thought, but you must recognize the reality of that belief system. If there is nothing to determine good outside of yourself then effort to support the good is really only an effort to exert your own force and indluence on the world and is devoid of any moral meaning.

    Which means the original statement should read:

    "Teaching people that religion is a made up fantasy for entertainment, identity, and sociological reasons is a good thing what I prefer and desire for other people."
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  2. #22
    Riva
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    The fact that it's the 21st century is irrelevant. If people have seemingly vastly different views yet don't have an issue living happily together then they obviously really have the same views.
    Two people could be of different religions but could have the same views. Vise versa. So if the OP and her hubby has the same views it would probably be a happy ending.

  3. #23
    Temporal Mechanic. Lexicon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    That's fine if you want to have independent thought, but you must recognize the reality of that belief system. If there is nothing to determine good outside of yourself then effort to support the good is really only an effort to exert your own force and indluence on the world and is devoid of any moral meaning.

    Which means the original statement should read:

    "Teaching people that religion is a made up fantasy for entertainment, identity, and sociological reasons is a good thing what I prefer and desire for other people."
    You realise how many athiestic and agnostic people there are in the world?

    Who or what in your mind dictates or defines this seemingly ''objective'' sense of moral meaning?
    03/23 06:06:58 EcK: lex
    03/23 06:06:59 EcK: lex
    03/23 06:21:34 Nancynobullets: LEXXX *sacrifices a first born*
    03/23 06:21:53 Nancynobullets: We summon yooouuu
    03/23 06:29:07 Lexicon: I was sleeping!



    04/25 04:20:35 Patches: Don't listen to lex. She wants to birth a litter of kittens. She doesnt get to decide whats creepy

    02/16 23:49:38 ygolo: Lex is afk
    02/16 23:49:45 Cimarron: she's doing drugs with Jack

    03/05 19:27:41 Time: You can't make chat morbid. Lex does it naturally.

  4. #24
    Riva
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    Nothing like seeing an INFJ on fire (Ni+Ti).

  5. #25
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lexicon View Post
    You realise how many athiestic and agnostic people there are in the world?
    What are you getting at?


    Who or what in your mind dictates or defines this seemingly ''objective'' sense of moral meaning?
    God
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  6. #26
    Temporal Mechanic. Lexicon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    What are you getting at?
    God
    I was trying to understand what appeared to be your personal assumption that without some collective & agreed upon understanding of reality [insert _religion_ here] & well developed value system based upon this, that anything else is meaningless. I mean, following that ''logic,'' people who do not follow a religion but instead are collectively open to other possibilities in this universe- and have similarly developed moral compasses - by your stated reasoning - they do support one another, thereby similarly validating and reinforcing their moral standards the same way a religious group may. It's just less indoctrinated/structured, at times, so perhaps it's hard for those who follow a religion by-the-book, to really grasp that concept. Understandable, as it does challenge their entire sense of reality.

    What is God?
    03/23 06:06:58 EcK: lex
    03/23 06:06:59 EcK: lex
    03/23 06:21:34 Nancynobullets: LEXXX *sacrifices a first born*
    03/23 06:21:53 Nancynobullets: We summon yooouuu
    03/23 06:29:07 Lexicon: I was sleeping!



    04/25 04:20:35 Patches: Don't listen to lex. She wants to birth a litter of kittens. She doesnt get to decide whats creepy

    02/16 23:49:38 ygolo: Lex is afk
    02/16 23:49:45 Cimarron: she's doing drugs with Jack

    03/05 19:27:41 Time: You can't make chat morbid. Lex does it naturally.

  7. #27
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    God
    Last time I checked, the definition of God and it's associated authority was still subjective and dependent on whom was attempting to defining it.
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  8. #28
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lexicon View Post
    I was trying to understand what appeared to be your personal assumption that without some collective & agreed upon understanding of reality & well developed value system based upon this, that anything else is meaningless. I mean, following that ''logic,'' people who do not follow a religion but instead are collectively open to other possibilities in this universe- and have similarly developed moral compasses - by your stated reasoning - they do support one another, thereby similarly validating and reinforcing their moral standards the same way a religious group may. It's just less indoctrinated/structured, at times, so perhaps it's hard for those who follow a religion by-the-book, to really grasp that concept. Understandable, as it does challenge their entire sense of reality.
    You're completely missing my point because you are so wrapped up in your own worldview that you aren't open-minded enough to realize I believe something fundamentally different from you and have different presumptions from you.

    A "collective and agreed upon understanding of reality" is not sufficient to justify moral assertions. Not when those moral assertions are made in a post-Christian culture which still presumes Good actually has inherent meaning and value.

    What is God?
    God is the great I AM.

    Quote Originally Posted by phobik View Post
    Last time I checked, the definition of God and it's associated authority was still subjective and dependent on whom was attempting to defining it.
    You're really such a slave to your own world view and can't think outside of it to realize what I'm getting at, can you?

    My thinking and atheistic/agnostic thinking both have subjective elements. The difference is that I believe in an objective good outside of myself. Regardless of whether there is an objective good outside of myself the fact remains that when an atheist/agnostic speaks with moral authority they are being inconsistent and hypocritical. When I appeal to moral authority I might be wrong, but at least I'm internally consistent.

    So who's being irrational here?
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  9. #29
    Temporal Mechanic. Lexicon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    You're completely missing my point because you are so wrapped up in your own worldview that you aren't open-minded enough to realize I believe something fundamentally different from you and have different presumptions from you.

    A "collective and agreed upon understanding of reality" is not sufficient to justify moral assertions. Not when those moral assertions are made in a post-Christian culture which still presumes Good actually has inherent meaning and value.



    God is the great I AM.
    I'm totally open to your interpretation of reality, I can't objectively say there's anything ''wrong'' with it- I just don't personally relate to it, so was trying to understand the lines of reasoning in your mind that lead you to your conclusions about this world.

    If trying to understand a different perspective is narrow-minded, then what precisely is open?

    I'm suddenly reminded of the chastising I received when I raised similar questions, attending church, in my youth. Questions only seem to provoke hostility and indignation.
    03/23 06:06:58 EcK: lex
    03/23 06:06:59 EcK: lex
    03/23 06:21:34 Nancynobullets: LEXXX *sacrifices a first born*
    03/23 06:21:53 Nancynobullets: We summon yooouuu
    03/23 06:29:07 Lexicon: I was sleeping!



    04/25 04:20:35 Patches: Don't listen to lex. She wants to birth a litter of kittens. She doesnt get to decide whats creepy

    02/16 23:49:38 ygolo: Lex is afk
    02/16 23:49:45 Cimarron: she's doing drugs with Jack

    03/05 19:27:41 Time: You can't make chat morbid. Lex does it naturally.

  10. #30
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    You're really such a slave to your own world view and can't think outside of it to realize what I'm getting at, can you?
    Do you really want an answer to that?
    My thinking and atheistic/agnostic thinking both have subjective elements. The difference is that I believe in an objective good outside of myself. Regardless of whether there is an objective good outside of myself the fact remains that when an atheist/agnostic speaks with moral authority they are being inconsistent and hypocritical. When I appeal to moral authority I might be wrong, but at least I'm internally consistent.
    So who's being irrational here?
    Read above.
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

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