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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    I have often seen belief in god to be a way for individuals within society to feel the protective comfort of submitting to a more dominant member of society in exchange for perceived protection, without having to suffer the loss of social status that would occur if that more dominant individual was actually another member of the social group. But submission means deference, even in spite of reality, thus intrusions upon one's protective reality cannot be tolerated.

    Internally I feel god could be described as love and transcends notions of religion-a continuum of humanity sees god as more than what is described above. Maybe god is something we have created through our own belief, the belief of billions. A perfect right triangle is an ideal that will never be seen, yet we can all agree on what that would look like, even though we can never reach it. Was the ideal of a right triangle real before someone came up with the idea? God may be the value based version of a right triangle..
    If we go looking for an evidence based God rather than the God of Faith, we don't find a God of Love but a God of Cruelty.

  2. #82
    Member CreativeCait's Avatar
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    Hmmm....this might turn into an epic response:

    Quote Originally Posted by 88reconcile88 View Post
    Christianity only consumes about 33% of people. Why would Christianity be ''the truth"!!! Why wouldn't it be Islam, Buddhism, Taoism, or even Egyptian and Greek mythology.
    We worship the same God as people in Islam and Judaism do, we have stories and teachings in common, but have very divergent ways of believing ‘how we are made right with God’ and what we need to do to be ‘saved’. This is the lynch pin. If you have come to believe that there must be a God (because we are not accidents, because there is a purpose to life etc.). And a significant majority of people on earth believe in the same God (the God of Abrahamic faith). That’s got to be significant right? And for me I’ve decided that Jesus was the Messiah proclaimed in Judaism (through prophecy and religious and historical texts) and that Mohammed and the teachings of Allah do not point the way to the God I know and love. Thus I am a Christian.

    As for Greek mythology, it didn’t really survive past Ancient Greek Civilisation on any significant scale. On the other hand Christianity did.

    That is my intellectual reasoning and it is enough for me. Then there is of course my experiential, emotional and spiritual reasoning which are highly personal and significantly more subjective. They all come together to create my belief.
    Why would I not be very interested in talking about this further?? In some part because I have already spent countless hours thinking about it and to be honest, someone bringing up something I have likely already considered probably isn’t going to change my opinion. In which case I would hear you out to a point, but you need to realise I am unlikely to adjust my opinion, or concede that what you say is ‘true’. Though I may concede that it is true for you, I am unlikely to agree that you actually have a point. This doesn’t mean I don’t respect you or havn’t been listening to what you said. But then I am dominant Fi-dom

    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    All of the variants of Christianity I'm aware of are pretty clear on their assertion that all the other variants are wrong and either will not be saved or will go to Hell, depending upon their belief system.
    How can you be an actual Christian (rather than simply a deist or pantheist who thinks Christ a.) probably existed and b.) was a good guy) and still believe that, say, a Buddhist will also be "saved"? Do you consider "salvation" synonymous with "enlightenment"?
    The underlying belief of Christianity is that you believe in Jesus, he died for your sins and rose from the dead and ascended into heaven and that he is the means by which you have a relationship with God and your pathway to heaven. Technically this is all that is required to be ‘saved’. As that is the grace of Jesus, all the other stuff that might have got in the way is covered by his blood through your belief in him. So the way I look at it is, so long as they believe this, ‘salvation’ in the Christian sense is possible. So long as the Buddhist believes the above, it is possible, irrespective of their other beliefs and transgressions of what is sinful in terms of Christianity (ie: anything that turns you away from God as outlined in the Bible). Because Jesus has got it covered. Through his blood sacrifice we are made perfect in the sight of God.

    So why do Christians follow biblical teachings if Jesus has it covered? Because we inherit our souls for the rest of eternity. Best to start working on them now. Who we are now becomes who we are forever. The relationships we cultivate here and the things we do here continue to impact us and others for the rest of eternity. Because life is unsatisfying when we are not in intimate relationship with God. And because we believe that the only way to an intimate relationship with God is through Jesus. But most of all because we love Jesus and we love God and it is hard to be in a relationship with someone you are continually hurting and disrespecting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Riva View Post
    Belief in God temporarily brings you this feeling of security. But the feeling is happiness (which is temporary) and not permanent (blissful).
    I would say this kind of belief is not true faith or maybe ‘baby faith’. True faith exists outside of feelings like ‘happiness’ and is not dependant on them. I doubt most mature Christians would describe their faith as built upon or serving this purpose.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    It takes both objective and subjective truth to comprehend the world and act constructively in it.
    Religion and science are as separate as male and female, day and night, sound and silence. They are two sides to the same coin; complementary ways of looking at the world. They work best together, each making use of its particular strengths, much as coworkers with disparate skills collaborating on a project team. Any religion which operates in this manner can "work perfectly with science". Actually, the fault is not so much with the religions per se, as with specific (groups of) believers who want to claim more for religion than it can deliver. Science, similarly, cannot tell us why we are here, what our purpose in life is, or what is moral and good.
    Exactly many Christians marry scientific beliefs with Christian beliefs. In fact, some say that our scientific discoveries come from God. And 99% would not turn to the bible in an attempt to explain gravity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    If we go looking for an evidence based God rather than the God of Faith, we don't find a God of Love but a God of Cruelty.
    Really? I have recently done a series in my church examining the reasonable evidence for God and at no point did we hit upon a God of Cruelty....what did you mean in your statement?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Because you want to stop all social programs that don't punish women for being unmarried and not subject to a man.
    I think you are talking about a Politicised Christianity here, which I differentiate from 'Christianity'. I’ve never heard this preached at any denomination of Christian church. In fact, it seems antithetical to the message of Jesus in the Bible, which was social justice and acceptance for all, not just for people deemed acceptable by the certain societal standards of the day. I have however, heard views somewhat along these lines expressed by politicians who happened to have publically identified themselves as Christian. But perhaps you were half-joking with this anyway??

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    On a serious note Id like to say that though I am not one, I do believe Catholics are the only real Christians because they adore Mary as mother of God, bringing a balance of masculine and feminine, and they tend to believe in the actual teachings of Jesus ... You know, like take care of the poor and the sick and the dying.
    And despite their shady past due to culture, you don't see many Catholics setting fire to gay people, either.
    Lets not judge entire denominations or religions on the basis of what a few crazies do. Granted there are smaller Sects or outlawed ‘Christian Churches’ basing their entire purpose on crazy homophobic teachings and other weird stuff that does not have to do with the gospel of Jesus...in which case judgement well deserved...

  3. #83
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CreativeCait View Post
    I think you are talking about a Politicised Christianity here, which I differentiate from 'Christianity'. I’ve never heard this preached at any denomination of Christian church. In fact, it seems antithetical to the message of Jesus in the Bible, which was social justice and acceptance for all, not just for people deemed acceptable by the certain societal standards of the day. I have however, heard views somewhat along these lines expressed by politicians who happened to have publically identified themselves as Christian. But perhaps you were half-joking with this anyway??
    Many Christians and so-called Christian groups act in ways antithetical to the message of Jesus. Just today, the Southern Baptists reiterated their position against rights for gays. I have heard sermons that attempt to put women in their biblical "place", or pass judgment on groups of people in a way that I cannot imagine Jesus having done. Cases like this may not be an indictment of Christianity as a faith, but religions are practiced and perpetuated here on earth by people, people who also act in the political, social, and professional arenas when they leave church. If they and their leaders are preaching "true" Christianity, they often fail to practice it.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  4. #84
    sswwwaagggg gmanyo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Many Christians and so-called Christian groups act in ways antithetical to the message of Jesus.
    lol yes. Pretty sure CreativeCait would agree with you here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    I'm starting to see you and your avatar as a cloud of odor that eminates from trashy threads.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by CreativeCait View Post
    As for Greek mythology, it didn’t really survive past Ancient Greek Civilisation on any significant scale. On the other hand Christianity did.
    Western civilization is based on four pillars - Ancient Greek philosophy, Judaism, Christianity and the Enlightenment.

  6. #86
    Senior Member UniqueMixture's Avatar
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    The reason not to believe in Christianity is because it is a composite of religions from whence it came much like Islam. Read history, you'll see the resurrection in egypt, flood myths in babylon, and similar creation myths from the Sumerians. Oh yes, let's not forget the influence of Zoroastrianism.
    For all that we have done, as a civilization, as individuals, the universe is not stable, and nor is any single thing within it. Stars consume themselves, the universe itself rushes apart, and we ourselves are composed of matter in constant flux. Colonies of cells in temporary alliance, replicating and decaying and housed within, an incandescent cloud of electrical impulses. This is reality, this is self knowledge, and the perception of it will, of course, make you dizzy.

  7. #87
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Sometimes I think that believing in Christianity is just as good as believing almost anything in this world. Living takes a certain amount of delusion, and even the most self honest person ends up having to pick their own flavor. Once you settled into an ideology, you've already comitted yourself to opposing somebody else's freedom, somebody else's beliefs. It's the rules of the jungle.

    I suppose this is why Buddhism exists, to address that problem. Which isn't to say that it's an answer exactly. I suppose it depends on what your question is exactly.

  8. #88
    Senior Member Forever_Jung's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    Sometimes I think that believing in Christianity is just as good as believing almost anything in this world. Living takes a certain amount of delusion, and even the most self honest person ends up having to pick their own flavor. Once you settled into an ideology, you've already comitted yourself to opposing somebody else's freedom, somebody else's beliefs. It's the rules of the jungle.

    I suppose this is why Buddhism exists, to address that problem. Which isn't to say that it's an answer exactly. I suppose it depends on what your question is exactly.
    I like that, especially the parts I bolded.

    I can't seem to suspend my disbelief with Christianity (as Victor put it, also how do you mention people?), but when I do read religious things that I can delude myself with, I integrate them into my worldview. I relate a lot to Herman Hesse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Herman Hesse
    For different people, there are different ways to God, to the center of the world. Yet the actual experience itself is always the same.

  9. #89
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    Sometimes I think that believing in Christianity is just as good as believing almost anything in this world. Living takes a certain amount of delusion, and even the most self honest person ends up having to pick their own flavor. Once you settled into an ideology, you've already comitted yourself to opposing somebody else's freedom, somebody else's beliefs. It's the rules of the jungle.
    ^^^Oh Qlip. Mark Twain...whom I've seen most often typed as an ENFP 7w6 (someone is now going to come on here and say no, no, no...) would probably get a kick out of what you wrote above!

    'Man is a Religious Animal. He is the only Religious Animal.... He is the only animal that loves his neighbor as himself and cuts his throat if his theology isn't straight. He has made a graveyard of the globe in trying his honest best to smooth his brother's path to happiness and heaven....'
    - "The Lowest Animal" - Twain

  10. #90
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    ^^^Oh Qlip. Mark Twain...whom I've seen most often typed as an ENFP 7w6 (someone is now going to come on here and say no, no, no...) would probably get a kick out of what you wrote above!

    'Man is a Religious Animal. He is the only Religious Animal.... He is the only animal that loves his neighbor as himself and cuts his throat if his theology isn't straight. He has made a graveyard of the globe in trying his honest best to smooth his brother's path to happiness and heaven....'
    - "The Lowest Animal" - Twain
    Twain was a master observationist. He does have that tone of the idealist that has been jilted by life but still secretly hopes.

    Anyway, Twain's quote seems about right. I don't make any differentiation between religion and non-spiritual based ideologies. Their gearboxes are built the same and they end up doing the same types of things.

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