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  1. #11
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd Girl View Post
    I understand. This happens among Christians too. I was cornered by a couple of Calvinists at a meetup group last week. It turned sour when they scoffed and called me Arminian. I had no idea what a Calvinist or an Arminian was. When they told me, I realized they were scoffing at me because they thought I was going to hell. Terrible. I don't do that.
    Aye, and I wondered if they do that out of fear of losing their beliefs if they would question it. Like they are brainwashed into believing theyre is no choice but never made the choice to believe themselves. They will keep on shunning anyone from any other belief in order to reaffirm their own to themselves.
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  2. #12
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    Jennifer, can you discuss that in more detail? All of the variants of Christianity I'm aware of are pretty clear on their assertion that all the other variants are wrong and either will not be saved or will go to Hell, depending upon their belief system.

    How can you be an actual Christian (rather than simply a deist or pantheist who thinks Christ a.) probably existed and b.) was a good guy) and still believe that, say, a Buddhist will also be "saved"? Do you consider "salvation" synonymous with "enlightenment"?

    (Just a note: if this came across as an attack, it's not. I'm genuinely curious.)
    Dost thou love Life? Then do not squander Time; for that's the Stuff Life is made of.

    -- Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack, June 1746 --

  3. #13
    A window to the soul
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    Quote Originally Posted by mycroft
    All of the variants of Christianity I'm aware of are pretty clear on their assertion that all the other variants are wrong and either will not be saved or will go to Hell, depending upon their belief systems
    That's not correct for me. And my Christian belief system comes from the Bible.

    EDIT: I don't think Calvinists or Mormons or any other man made variation of Christianity is going to hell, even though they think I am.

  4. #14
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 88reconcile88 View Post
    My friend and I were recently discussing God. He is a die hard believer and always talks of 'faith'. He will not listen to my ideas, but yet I will listen to him. I was thinking, how can I go to church and obey specific commands, rituals, teachings etc... When there is tons of religions out there who all have different commands, rituals, teachings etc... And each different religion believes that their religion is the unquestionable truth and everyone else's religion is false. Now obviously ( no logically) not all of the existing religions can be true at the same time. Does each believer think that their religion is correct, and that obeying will bring them peace? If one is right, then the others are wrong. Idolatry is prohibited in the Christian religion, but if you Christians really believe that, then you are saying that the other 4.9 billion people around the world who aren't Christians are worshipping false gods. Christianity only consumes about 33% of people. Why would Christianity be ''the truth"!!! Why wouldn't it be Islam, Buddhism, Taoism, or even Egyptian and Greek mythology.
    Its good to have an enquiring mind, I'd recommend you read Pascal from reading your post and ask instead why not believe in Christianity?

  5. #15
    Senior Member UniqueMixture's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd Girl View Post
    I understand. This happens among Christians too. I was cornered by a couple of Calvinists at a meetup group last week. It turned sour when they scoffed and called me Arminian. I had no idea what a Calvinist or an Arminian was. When they told me, I realized they were scoffing at me because they thought I was going to hell. Terrible. I don't do that.
    Were they ntjs?

    P.S.

    Would you think it?
    For all that we have done, as a civilization, as individuals, the universe is not stable, and nor is any single thing within it. Stars consume themselves, the universe itself rushes apart, and we ourselves are composed of matter in constant flux. Colonies of cells in temporary alliance, replicating and decaying and housed within, an incandescent cloud of electrical impulses. This is reality, this is self knowledge, and the perception of it will, of course, make you dizzy.

  6. #16
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    Jennifer, can you discuss that in more detail? All of the variants of Christianity I'm aware of are pretty clear on their assertion that all the other variants are wrong and either will not be saved or will go to Hell, depending upon their belief system.

    How can you be an actual Christian (rather than simply a deist or pantheist who thinks Christ a.) probably existed and b.) was a good guy) and still believe that, say, a Buddhist will also be "saved"? Do you consider "salvation" synonymous with "enlightenment"?

    (Just a note: if this came across as an attack, it's not. I'm genuinely curious.)
    In the only passages to actually deal with judgement, I'm thinking principally of one in Mathew, Jesus does not mention religious affiliation or denomination, he mentions deeds and wether or not people objectively failed to practice what they preached, the people involved may have been christian believers because they suggest that if they had only recognised him they would have acted differently but I would suggest that its more likely he was talking in broader strokes.

    Why? Because the whole of Jesus' ministry was about demonstrating that God's favour was an inclusive and not an exclusive thing, it was not restricted to the ethnic-nationalist boundaries of the Hebrews as had been discussed previously in the old testament, he extends it to enemies, he even heals them which was at the time also about forgiveness of sins/God's favour.

    The exclusionary/elective thinking about God's favour I has been a curse, it existed in the old testament, just enough of it survived into the new testament to permit its transmission to things like Calvinism, Lutherianism and other schismatic or sectarian tendencies.

  7. #17
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UniqueMixture View Post
    What if they are all true simultaneously?
    From serious study of all the world religions I have thought this for some time, it is possible that God has spoken in as many ways as there are peoples and languages and dialects.

    On the other hand I do think that religion is like mathematics, its possible to get the right answer but the working out is wrong, its possible to get near to the right answer with different working out too but in the end there's only one right answer.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by UniqueMixture View Post
    Were they ntjs?

    P.S.

    Would you think it?
    Yes.

  9. #19
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywolf View Post
    You mean what if heaven is a place that is shaped in a way you have felt it to be like based on your beliefs in your life. So when a christian dies he goes to his version of heaven whereas if an atheist dies he goes to nothingness, etc, etc.. Then would it not be safe to assume we could not communicate anymore with each other in such an afterlife, apart from constructs of our own imagination? If so, what would be the point of heaven, if it's nothing more than one long eternal dream?
    I cant remember his name but I did read some interesting stuff from someone who is a physicist or some sort of scientific researcher who has suggested that he believes God or the cosmos gives people what they want, if athiests have a strong believe in oblivion then that's what they'll get. I dont believe that necessarily but I could see how if you've been real conviction athiest all your life and embittered about it that dying, discovering that you're wholly wrong and even if this is accompanied with forgiveness or an opportunity for reconciliation it would still be hell. Imagine it as the worst social faux pas possible or very worst family feud and fall out, sometimes even if there's no judgementalism and its not being mentioned incidents of disgrace or mistaken beliefs are still enough to drive people crazy and make their lives hell.

    Within evangelical circles, which I'll confess are a dry and distant land to me, I think Rob Bell has come nearest the mark by suggesting people can have as much heaven or hell as they like, in this life or any other, and its all about adjustment, the gospels of Jesus being one of principle and best guides available as to how.

  10. #20
    Senior Member UniqueMixture's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd Girl View Post
    Yes.
    Then do you relate to how your thoughts may make others feel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    From serious study of all the world religions I have thought this for some time, it is possible that God has spoken in as many ways as there are peoples and languages and dialects.

    On the other hand I do think that religion is like mathematics, its possible to get the right answer but the working out is wrong, its possible to get near to the right answer with different working out too but in the end there's only one right answer.
    What if each person reflects a face of god? What if god is not perfect?
    For all that we have done, as a civilization, as individuals, the universe is not stable, and nor is any single thing within it. Stars consume themselves, the universe itself rushes apart, and we ourselves are composed of matter in constant flux. Colonies of cells in temporary alliance, replicating and decaying and housed within, an incandescent cloud of electrical impulses. This is reality, this is self knowledge, and the perception of it will, of course, make you dizzy.

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