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  1. #121
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CreativeCait View Post
    Yes, I believe God gave us free will. So I mostly agree with what you wrote above. I believe that suffering comes from the fact that we live in a 'fallen world' full of sin and yes, the Devil's hand in our lives, but also our own inherently sinful nature. I think if we live closer to God's will, the less self-destructive and sinful things we do and the less we suffer at the hands of our own making.

    However, I think sometimes love and suffering from God can go hand in hand. This is the experience from my personal life. I believe you touched upon this when you said suffering that makes us stronger, benefits us, or is his will in some way. I would caution against heading toward the kind of thinking that Christianity is all about clouds and fairy floss and making ourselves feel better :p But it is definately about LOVE. It is hard to know where suffering comes from and what its purpose is. I think this is one of the greatest mysteries of life that are sometimes discovered years and decades later...sometimes not at all...but is all known to God who has a great purpose for our lives and this world. That's what I believe about it.

    I agree that God is about Love. I am having a rather difficult time getting through the old Testament because there is so much war and competition in it, with attribution to God. I don't believe God ever was like the God of the Old Testament, but I'm reading the Bible because I've assigned myself that task for various reasons.

    It was helpful for me to realize that about God's will and our free will, especially when asking the question, "Why does God let bad things happen?" Well, I think a lot of the time people are the cause of bad things happening, and in those cases, it's not really up to God to save us. He expects us to be good to each other and live in Love as he loves us. Of course sometimes accidents and illnesses happen and there is not obvious reason, and that seems cruel....

    I agree with you that the 'point' is not necessarily to be free from pain. Being human, we will suffer if we live long enough. It is hard to be human, and no matter how good or well we live we cannot escape that simple fact. But by shirking God and his presence in our lives, and consciousness of his higher power, we make it so much harder on ourselves. Don't we?
    Ni/Ti/Fe/Si
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    The more one loves God, the more it is that having nothing in the world means everything, and the less one loves God, the more it is that having everything in the world means nothing.

    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

    songofmary.wordpress.com


  2. #122
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CreativeCait View Post
    And God [Jesus] endured it out of the greatest love the world has ever seen.
    This is the love that led to 2,000 years of anti-semitism, culminating in the holocaust.

    @CreativeCait

  3. #123
    Member CreativeCait's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    It has been a long time since I considered myself Christian, but I still see merit in the question which was trendy for awhile: "What would Jesus do?"
    Totally! I need to remind myself of this more too

    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    I agree that God is about Love. I am having a rather difficult time getting through the old Testament because there is so much war and competition in it, with attribution to God. I don't believe God ever was like the God of the Old Testament, but I'm reading the Bible because I've assigned myself that task for various reasons.

    It was helpful for me to realize that about God's will and our free will, especially when asking the question, "Why does God let bad things happen?" Well, I think a lot of the time people are the cause of bad things happening, and in those cases, it's not really up to God to save us. He expects us to be good to each other and live in Love as he loves us. Of course sometimes accidents and illnesses happen and there is not obvious reason, and that seems cruel....

    I agree with you that the 'point' is not necessarily to be free from pain. Being human, we will suffer if we live long enough. It is hard to be human, and no matter how good or well we live we cannot escape that simple fact. But by shirking God and his presence in our lives, and consciousness of his higher power, we make it so much harder on ourselves. Don't we?
    I really like what you wrote in bold, you put it so elequently I agree, we do make it harder on ourselves by shirking God and his presence in our lives. I can certainly see that in my own life....*ponder*

    Argh, I've kind of forgotten it now, but someone once explained to me the distinction between the God of the old Testament and the God of the New Testament. It went something along the lines of we had more to atone for before Jesus came and made things right with us and God. So the God of the old testament was more vengeful and required more sacrifice from us (they used to have to sacrifice lambs and animals but because of Jesus, we don't need to do that to atone for our sins and be in relationship with him). I agree I relate more to the God of the New Testament.

    Job is kinda an interesting book to read on why God inflicts suffering on people when it seems really 'cruel' to do so. I'm no theologan but I think even though it comes accross as 'pointless' and 'unfair' the point was to strengthen Job's faith. To see if he still believed, when he was stripped of all the blessings God had given him in life. To remind us that it is God's will to give and it is his will to take away. And to prove to Satan that Job was almost the pinnacle of faith, that nothing God allowed Satan to do to Job would make him turn away from God. I think other than the cross, that is one of the greatest expose's on the topic of suffering in the Bible.

  4. #124
    Member CreativeCait's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    This is the love that led to 2,000 years of anti-semitism, culminating in the holocaust.

    @CreativeCait
    That statement is offensive and unfounded.

  5. #125
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CreativeCait View Post

    Argh, I've kind of forgotten it now, but someone once explained to me the distinction between the God of the old Testament and the God of the New Testament. It went something along the lines of we had more to atone for before Jesus came and made things right with us and God. So the God of the old testament was more vengeful and required more sacrifice from us (they used to have to sacrifice lambs and animals but because of Jesus, we don't need to do that to atone for our sins and be in relationship with him). I agree I relate more to the God of the New Testament.
    There is no NT God and OT God. There is one God. The God of Abraham who exists in three unified persons; the father, son, and holy ghost. God is immutable; he does not change. He always deals with his people on the same basis; grace. God is merciful in the OT just as he is in the NT. He delivers and protects his people time and time again despite their lack of faith, open disobedience, and complaints. No matter how poorly Adam, Abraham, Moses, or David treat God he still makes good on his promises to them. Delivering to them the ultimate promise in Christ Jesus.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  6. #126
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CreativeCait View Post
    Totally! I need to remind myself of this more too



    I really like what you wrote in bold, you put it so elequently I agree, we do make it harder on ourselves by shirking God and his presence in our lives. I can certainly see that in my own life....*ponder*

    Argh, I've kind of forgotten it now, but someone once explained to me the distinction between the God of the old Testament and the God of the New Testament. It went something along the lines of we had more to atone for before Jesus came and made things right with us and God. So the God of the old testament was more vengeful and required more sacrifice from us (they used to have to sacrifice lambs and animals but because of Jesus, we don't need to do that to atone for our sins and be in relationship with him). I agree I relate more to the God of the New Testament.
    Yeah! I've seen that written on here before, thanks for reminding me.

    Job is kinda an interesting book to read on why God inflicts suffering on people when it seems really 'cruel' to do so. I'm no theologan but I think even though it comes accross as 'pointless' and 'unfair' the point was to strengthen Job's faith. To see if he still believed, when he was stripped of all the blessings God had given him in life. To remind us that it is God's will to give and it is his will to take away. And to prove to Satan that Job was almost the pinnacle of faith, that nothing God allowed Satan to do to Job would make him turn away from God. I think other than the cross, that is one of the greatest expose's on the topic of suffering in the Bible.
    I'm going to have to reread Job now.
    Ni/Ti/Fe/Si
    4w5 5w4 1w9
    ~Torah observant, Christ inspired~
    Life Path 11

    The more one loves God, the more it is that having nothing in the world means everything, and the less one loves God, the more it is that having everything in the world means nothing.

    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

    songofmary.wordpress.com


  7. #127
    Senior Member Forever_Jung's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CreativeCait View Post
    That statement is offensive and unfounded.
    That's kind of Victor's niche

  8. #128
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    Christ Killers

    Quote Originally Posted by CreativeCait View Post
    That statement is offensive and unfounded.
    I can only quote the Bible, Matthew 27:25, "Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children".

    This is called the blood libel against the Jews, and for 2,000 years the Jews were called deicides, that is, the killers of the deity.

    And the holocaust was justified by ordinary christians, who said of the Jews that, "They are Christ killers".

    @CreativeCait

  9. #129
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    I can only quote the Bible, Matthew 27:25, "Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children".

    This is called the blood libel against the Jews, and for 2,000 years the Jews were called deicides, that is, the killers of the deity.

    And the holocaust was justified by ordinary christians, who said of the Jews that, "They are Christ killers".

    @CreativeCait
    Non-Christians aren't allowed to use proof texts.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  10. #130
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    Non-Christians aren't allowed to use proof texts.
    C'mon, even the Devil quotes the Bible for his own purposes.

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