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  1. #111

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    Quote Originally Posted by Forever_Jung View Post
    Oh I just meant, it's not like Satan came out with a pitchfork and a red pajamas and everyone hated him in the story.
    I love bugs bunny cartoons too.

  2. #112
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    God and the devil are complex and not thought of much anymore, the rise of secularism and humanism has actively deprived the world of archetypes and narratives, just another reason to be suspiscious of that particular trend.
    Lark, this assertion confuses me. Could you speak to your thinking here?

  3. #113

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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    Lark, this assertion confuses me. Could you speak to your thinking here?
    Why does it confuse you?

    Secularism and humanism deny that mankind has or there is anything positive about a religious imagination its not complex or confusing.

  4. #114
    Senior Member Forever_Jung's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I love bugs bunny cartoons too.

    I was simply trying to clarify that Satan wasn't some sort of strawman in Twain's book, so the quote wasn't dismissed. I wasn't trying to fully explore the complexity of the devil archetype.

    Why does it confuse you?

    Secularism and humanism deny that mankind has or there is anything positive about a religious imagination its not complex or confusing.
    Yes, I am VERY wary of secular humanism. I feel that we have already been stripped of too many our rituals and archetypes.

  5. #115

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    Quote Originally Posted by Forever_Jung View Post
    I was simply trying to clarify that Satan wasn't some sort of strawman in Twain's book, so the quote wasn't dismissed. I wasn't trying to fully explore the complexity of the devil archetype.



    Yes, I am VERY wary of secular humanism. I feel that we have already been stripped of too many our rituals and archetypes.
    I find that a lot of those sorts of trends are about not thinking, not thinking too hard for sure but mainly not thinking, whole lot of emoting stands in for the thinking.

  6. #116
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Why does it confuse you?

    Secularism and humanism deny that mankind has or there is anything positive about a religious imagination its not complex or confusing.
    Well, my primary reason behind requesting clarification was to gain a sense for how you defined your terms. Secularism and humanism are very old ideals, but have enjoyed contemporary re-purposing as catch-all cultural nets when people want to levy criticism against certain 'perils' of modernity. Same concept can be found when die-hard materialists seek to castigate 'fundamentalist agenda' as the essential plotline to lead Western ideals into decay and stagnation.

    I appreciate your explanation.

  7. #117
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    It leads to some interesting and odd but perfectly consistent possible beliefs when you think about it, like "I believe in God rather than capitalism/communism/materialism", what is really being asserted is disbelief in capitalism, communism, materialism (I only use those because they are modern examples of underpinning, unacknowledged belief systems), not really belief in God as a being exterior to human life and thought.

    I read it in Erich Fromm and I suspected originally that he was trying to do for Judahism what Fuerbach did for Christianity, although he has cited other earlier Jewish sources who do appear to agree with him, like Maimonides http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maimoni...ative_theology

    On the other hand I think it may be possible to assert negative theology like Maimonides without necessarily disbelieving in God as an exterior being, I think that Wittgenstein was suggesting something like this in the books he wrote which were mistakenly celebrated by atheists like Bertrand Russell.
    Huh.. damn it I need to read more, this all sounds facinating. Basically, I just learned enough philosophy to get myself out of the woods and it's all highly suspect stuff that I'm not willing to provide refences for. There shouldn't be anything ironic about what I'm about to claim, but I'm a practical philosopher.

  8. #118
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    Cruelty In the Beginning

    Quote Originally Posted by CreativeCait View Post
    Really? I have recently done a series in my church examining the reasonable evidence for God and at no point did we hit upon a God of Cruelty....what did you mean in your statement?
    God, the Father, ordered Abraham to murder his son, Isaac, by eviseration.

    And then God, the Father, went on to torture his own son, Jesus, to death.

    The first act of cruelty was the beginning of the Abrahamic faiths; and the second act of cruelty was the beginning of christianity.

    So in the beginning was cruelty.

    @CreativeCait

  9. #119
    Member CreativeCait's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Many Christians and so-called Christian groups act in ways antithetical to the message of Jesus. Just today, the Southern Baptists reiterated their position against rights for gays. I have heard sermons that attempt to put women in their biblical "place", or pass judgment on groups of people in a way that I cannot imagine Jesus having done. Cases like this may not be an indictment of Christianity as a faith, but religions are practiced and perpetuated here on earth by people, people who also act in the political, social, and professional arenas when they leave church. If they and their leaders are preaching "true" Christianity, they often fail to practice it.
    This makes me sad *sigh*

    It annoys me when people (not you, thinking more of preachers + believers + other commentators) look at Christianity as if its outside of the influence of culture and society. In most of its expressions it has become highly entwined with the social and cultural discourses of the place it is being practiced in. This has good and bad effects. Also, the tradition itself is highly influenced by Greek philosophy and, especially in the case of the Catholic Church, the Roman then Byzantine Empire. As well as other things, expecially the origins of Christmas. But back to my point, many people confuse personal, political and social agendas with Christianity and don't challenge them enough through open-minded engagement with the bible, God and Jesus. Which is sad...The social and cultural context thingy is probably why I have not personally heard this stuff where I live.

    Quote Originally Posted by gmanyo View Post
    lol yes. Pretty sure CreativeCait would agree with you here.
    yes indeedy

    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Western civilization is based on four pillars - Ancient Greek philosophy, Judaism, Christianity and the Enlightenment.
    Yes.

    Ancient greek philosophy yes, ofcourse...but not ancient Greek Mythology, not in terms of praxis....in terms of research, teaching, literature, popular culture, yes, we still talk about Greek Mythology today.

    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    I haven't been thinking about God very long, as I was a self-proclaimed 'atheist' for 20+ years, but do you believe that God gives us free will?

    I do, and if so, that would mean that God gives us the ability to allow the 'Devil' to work in us and to inflict pain and suffering on ourselves and others. Therefore, I don't think we can attribute any suffering to God, unless it is suffering of the kind that is going to make us stronger or benefit us in the long run, or is His will in some way. I think some suffering, perhaps most, is from elsewhere. The Devil, for lack of a better term.

    And that if we all lived as close to God's will as we could, merging it with our will, not against it, we would likely actually 'suffer' very little.

    I think we can only attribute Love to God. Not suffering.
    Yes, I believe God gave us free will. So I mostly agree with what you wrote above. I believe that suffering comes from the fact that we live in a 'fallen world' full of sin and yes, the Devil's hand in our lives, but also our own inherently sinful nature. I think if we live closer to God's will, the less self-destructive and sinful things we do and the less we suffer at the hands of our own making.

    However, I think sometimes love and suffering from God can go hand in hand. This is the experience from my personal life. I believe you touched upon this when you said suffering that makes us stronger, benefits us, or is his will in some way. I would caution against heading toward the kind of thinking that Christianity is all about clouds and fairy floss and making ourselves feel better :p But it is definately about LOVE. It is hard to know where suffering comes from and what its purpose is. I think this is one of the greatest mysteries of life that are sometimes discovered years and decades later...sometimes not at all...but is all known to God who has a great purpose for our lives and this world. That's what I believe about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    I was interpreting Twain. See my reply to Beefeater. I could write a lot on this subject ^^^, but this probably isn't the thread for it.
    Wanna start another thread???

    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    God, the Father, ordered Abraham to murder his son, Isaac, by eviseration.

    And then God, the Father, went on to torture his own son, Jesus, to death.

    The first act of cruelty was the beginning of the Abrahamic faiths; and the second act of cruelty was the beginning of christianity.

    So in the beginning was cruelty.

    @CreativeCait
    Hmmm....actually in most theology, it is more like, in the beginning was perfect love and the creation of life....then humans and the fallen angel (Satan) stuffed it up. What happened with Abraham came WAY down the track...And Jesus was tortured by humans, yes God allowed it, but it was at the hands of human cruelty. And God [Jesus] endured it out of the greatest love the world has ever seen.

  10. #120
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CreativeCait View Post
    But back to my point, many people confuse personal, political and social agendas with Christianity and don't challenge them enough through open-minded engagement with the bible, God and Jesus. Which is sad...The social and cultural context thingy is probably why I have not personally heard this stuff where I live.
    It has been a long time since I considered myself Christian, but I still see merit in the question which was trendy for awhile: "What would Jesus do?"
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

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