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  1. #71
    Senior Member ZPowers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Hmm, what is your opinion of the stoics writing on this topic? Or the courage shown by Thomas Moore or the King Charles the 1st (who Cromwell had executed)?
    I'm not entirely familiar with the Stoics wrote in terms of death. I believe I remember reading some Stoic philosophy quite some time ago on sort of living in a more objective moment or seperation of reaction and reality, which does not seem like an entirely terrible approach.

    In terms of Charles I, or Thomas More or others whom faced death bravely, I feel this is a slightly different issue, though considering that fact makes the wording in my last post seem odd. I do have some concern about dying, and much less for death. Dying is something I will actually do someday, and I do have a care for how I go about doing it (or, indeed, how it is done to me). Naturally facing it with grace and dignity would be preferential, and would benefit whatever legacy I left behind (which, of course, is probably the only thing that would still exist of me).

    Death, in relation to an individual, is not something I will "do," it's simply a state where I am not (or so I would guess). The concept of this state where I am not, the absence of me, is really the simplest, basic, most non-complex thing in the world and, strangely, is totally without effect to me. In some ways, it's the opposite of something that actually effects me as a being. It's there, it is what it is (unless it isn't, which I can not determine in any way), one day I'll stumble across it and I don't see any real point in fussing about it.
    Does he want a pillow for his head?

  2. #72
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZPowers View Post
    I'm not entirely familiar with the Stoics wrote in terms of death. I believe I remember reading some Stoic philosophy quite some time ago on sort of living in a more objective moment or seperation of reaction and reality, which does not seem like an entirely terrible approach.

    In terms of Charles I, or Thomas More or others whom faced death bravely, I feel this is a slightly different issue, though considering that fact makes the wording in my last post seem odd. I do have some concern about dying, and much less for death. Dying is something I will actually do someday, and I do have a care for how I go about doing it (or, indeed, how it is done to me). Naturally facing it with grace and dignity would be preferential, and would benefit whatever legacy I left behind (which, of course, is probably the only thing that would still exist of me).

    Death, in relation to an individual, is not something I will "do," it's simply a state where I am not (or so I would guess). The concept of this state where I am not, the absence of me, is really the simplest, basic, most non-complex thing in the world and, strangely, is totally without effect to me. In some ways, it's the opposite of something that actually effects me as a being. It's there, it is what it is (unless it isn't, which I can not determine in any way), one day I'll stumble across it and I don't see any real point in fussing about it.
    Well, Moore and Charles the first were both confirmed theists and as a result had perhaps less fear to show than someone who has grown up in the present day were those beliefs are no more commonplace and more difficult to hold than doubts or disbelief.

    The stoics, as I read them in The Shortness of Life by Seneca, tried to typify bravery unto death. There's one example of a stoic who ridiculed a tyrant who sentenced them to death and another sentenced to death laughed about it and said that he didnt know why his friends mourned and that while they wondered if there was life after death he was going to find out. Seneca goes on to talk about the good death as opposed to simply waiting on it to creep up on you.

    I'm honest that I dont know I could display either of the examples I've mentioned, perhaps I'm cowardly or perhaps I can not rationalise away the fears I associate with death because it is inevitable and unavoidable.

  3. #73
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    This isn't a light or simple subject to expound upon, and it was thus out of such understanding and personal ruminating that I decided to create the thread. I must say I am positively surprised by the various contributions and the spun discussion, as they have exceeded my expectations. So a shoutout to all

    Also, I'll leave a shoutout @Vasilisa, as I understand she had contribution to make
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
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    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  4. #74
    Senior Member UniqueMixture's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    I try not to overthink. If I were raised as an atheist, I think I'd have an easier time accepting death as a natural thing, but my transition to atheism was a bit traumatic. I believe I will return to a ''state'' that ''I'' already spent billions of years at. So, in a way, this shouldn't be something be feared. The idea of spending an eternity under some sort of unquestionable divine jurisdiction is perhaps scarier. I wish I could just embrace my mortality as a good thing, but I'm not there yet. I think it takes time. I hope I live enough to get to the point where I'm totally in peace with it.
    It's interesting that you mentioned that. I think the soul may be replication of physical patterns from particle interaction.

    As for the topic, perhaps death is probabalistic. I am an optimist though.
    For all that we have done, as a civilization, as individuals, the universe is not stable, and nor is any single thing within it. Stars consume themselves, the universe itself rushes apart, and we ourselves are composed of matter in constant flux. Colonies of cells in temporary alliance, replicating and decaying and housed within, an incandescent cloud of electrical impulses. This is reality, this is self knowledge, and the perception of it will, of course, make you dizzy.

  5. #75
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UniqueMixture View Post
    It's interesting that you mentioned that. I think the soul may be replication of physical patterns from particle interaction.

    As for the topic, perhaps death is probabalistic. I am an optimist though.
    Reality is probabilistic, so that's likely an accurate statement.
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  6. #76
    Senior Member UniqueMixture's Avatar
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    So what percentage of you is dead right now? I think that is the more important question.
    For all that we have done, as a civilization, as individuals, the universe is not stable, and nor is any single thing within it. Stars consume themselves, the universe itself rushes apart, and we ourselves are composed of matter in constant flux. Colonies of cells in temporary alliance, replicating and decaying and housed within, an incandescent cloud of electrical impulses. This is reality, this is self knowledge, and the perception of it will, of course, make you dizzy.

  7. #77
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UniqueMixture View Post
    So what percentage of you is dead right now? I think that is the more important question.
    I was thinking more Quantum Electrodynamics, but that's a good question...
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  8. #78
    I'm not Trunks
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    my grandmother passed away which made me feel sad, i'm close to my grandmother but for few years before her death, i'm not very close to her. i still remember her until today, i feel safe when she is around. i didn't really realize that she is important to me until she died.

  9. #79
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    "Why should I fear death?
    If I am, death is not.
    If death is. I am not.
    Why should I fear that which cannot exist when I do?"

    Epicurus

  10. #80
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Having trouble trying to verify "faith" in any concrete way, the way it stands from the way things work int he universe, this looks like it might be the most likely outcome: http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...your-head.html

    In that vein, in light of the whole idea of the unconscious and how we suppress or repress things that seem less relevant, it figures that these bodies are what tie us to the physical world (in a particular place and time) that occupies most of our consciousness, so when we pass on, the unconscious (all 'truth" or knowledge) will be all exposed before us, in addition to no longer being confined to a single point in space, time, or "chance". (http://www.erictb.info/chance.html)
    This now heads the way of the "we become part of the whole", or whatever, and could be a loss of individuality. I hope, it would allow us to refocus on individual points in space, time and chance (differentiating a separate individuality again), so we could relive the past, see the future, see other places in the universe, and also explore alternate realities.

    I guess what INTP posited there would to each individual possibly be something like that.

    The world is full of pain and loss, including death, unfulfilled dreams and the "splitting" required for differentiation of our identities (like the separation of the ego from the anima/animus, which is what drives us to seek this "life giving energy" in another person).
    To just pass into some state of non-conscious nonbeing leaves all of this unfulfilled, and it was like "what was this life really for", then. So even the stance of the person who seems sure there is nothing after this, "so we have to make the most of this now while we're here" seems to leave one cold and dry. For whatever you have here will end soon (and it can be sooner than you think. Any day or moment, when you think of it), and for me, it's hard to even enjoy something knowing it will end soon. (Think last day of vacation before going back to work).

    On the other hand, a wishful sentiment doesn't make it real (Though in that other thread, something was posed that amounted to essentially something like that). This is why I've been having trouble with "faith".

    Even if you've mastered faith, like in the God of the Bible, I've found that there is no certainty on whether things are being interpreted right. Like most take literally the "pearly gates" and "streets of gold" images of "Heaven", but looking at the context of things, this may be more a picture of salvation (in this life) out from under the condemnation of the Law. Of course, with the Church teaching that we are still under the Law, and in danger of condemnation unless we do the right things, and persevere at it (described as a "narrow path" that is "hard"), then it won't seem like we're walking the streets of gold now, will it. So we keep looking to the afterlife, which is the total opposite, just serene idleness, in contrast to all the hard "work" and suffering we have to do now. (What is totally not realized, is that this whole concept is "work" is precisely what was said to be abolished at the Cross. The Church seems to think that just meant trading a "Jewish" set of laws for new "Christian" ones!)

    So even among those who take those images of "Heaven" literally, many have tried to make it more appealing, by making it a new world, exactly like this one, but somehow without pain, suffering and sin and crime. But you wonder how that will work. Where the immediate purpose of life now is to survive and spawn the next generation; what will be the drive of life then? It seems like it would have to be a different universe with different laws.
    Then, you have the traditional assumption, that we just float around doing nothing but worshiping, and that seems more likely. But then you wonder how either of these really fulfills this life. They teach God erases your memory and you just enjoy "being with Him". What then was this life for? I guess, just the screening room for who gets in; but that is questionable, in light of what Grace really is.

    So it's like no one really knows; either in our outside of "faith". I just hope for some sort of fulfillment of this existence.
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