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  1. #81
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    You believe good and evil are not merely human concepts? If so, how do you know?
    Try reading my posts. Which you obviously didnt because you wouldnt have posted that. Unless you like appearing foolish which I suppose is possible.

  2. #82
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nebbykoo View Post
    I don't believe there is any such thing as 'evil' beyond humanity and human deeds. There is no free-floating, nefarious force in the universe, no evil spirits, no evil in nature, no 'objective evil'. That's a childish perspective, a duality driven by splitting, which is itself driven from a lack of clear perspective.
    Have you seen The Fifth Element?

    Greatest film since Star Wars. Until Promethius came out that is. Although still a lot like Star Wars.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    There wasnt any ad hominems.

    Better way to define good and evil? Good and evil are the definitions and can not be "bettered", I know that a lot of hipster Nietzsche readers arent too hot on the idea but in time either experience or discovering some other author, like Chesterton for instance, makes Nietzsche seem less novel.

    Plus I guess growing up just makes it easier to make judgements.
    Well, if you're not going to make any comments that actually contribute to the discussion, and instead want to use ad hominems while claiming you're not using ad hominems, then we're probably not going to get any further in this conversation. Ah well.

  4. #84
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dala View Post
    Well, if you're not going to make any comments that actually contribute to the discussion, and instead want to use ad hominems while claiming you're not using ad hominems, then we're probably not going to get any further in this conversation. Ah well.
    I dont believe we are going to get any further with the conversation.

  5. #85
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Try reading my posts. Which you obviously didnt because you wouldnt have posted that. Unless you like appearing foolish which I suppose is possible.
    I would like a fresh start so that you can give clear answers to clear questions and I know exactly what we are talking about.

  6. #86
    Senior Member UniqueMixture's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I'm sorry, there's things you just said that are ridiculous, even by your own lights.

    Why is it useful to approach things from an atheist perspective and why is it automatically speaking of God and morality which is insensitive?

    Lets look at what atheism and amorality gave us, slavery, communism, nazism, fascism, that's not a great record, so it becomes impossible by your own standard to consider things things from the conceptual stand point you consider objectively correct to do so.

    The reality that concepts are abused aswell as used does not invalidate the same concepts altogether, its like applying the worst rationalisations from debates about gun control to language and theory.

    Now I know what you wrote was ENTIRELY well meant, though THINK, THINK HARD, go on try it!!
    Hmm. Speaking of god is not wrong, I'm just saying it is easy for both sides to stereotype one another and not listen to each other. Atheists have contributed many good things to society. I think the correlations you draw between atheism and various horrors sound very similar to christianity aand the crusades type talk. Also, many atheists would state that horrible atrocities were done because some guy stood up and said he was the son of god (the Pharaohs of egypt for example). I only addressed your comment because I guess I view you as more aware of/conscious of the moral/emotional impacts of belief/ideation than others on this forum.
    For all that we have done, as a civilization, as individuals, the universe is not stable, and nor is any single thing within it. Stars consume themselves, the universe itself rushes apart, and we ourselves are composed of matter in constant flux. Colonies of cells in temporary alliance, replicating and decaying and housed within, an incandescent cloud of electrical impulses. This is reality, this is self knowledge, and the perception of it will, of course, make you dizzy.

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Have you seen The Fifth Element?

    Greatest film since Star Wars. Until Promethius came out that is. Although still a lot like Star Wars.
    I've watched the Fifth Element several times. Great film. I have not seen Prometheus yet.

  8. #88
    Senior Member guesswho's Avatar
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    i'm reading this and I just don't understand the point.

    The good and the bad are part of the variety of human behavior, you can't have one without the other. While a person is trying to build something so that many people may benefit from it, another person "on the other side of the word" will try to destroy something.

    I just don't seem to care.

    it's just people doing stuff.

  9. #89
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UniqueMixture View Post
    Hmm. Speaking of god is not wrong, I'm just saying it is easy for both sides to stereotype one another and not listen to each other. Atheists have contributed many good things to society. I think the correlations you draw between atheism and various horrors sound very similar to christianity aand the crusades type talk. Also, many atheists would state that horrible atrocities were done because some guy stood up and said he was the son of god (the Pharaohs of egypt for example). I only addressed your comment because I guess I view you as more aware of/conscious of the moral/emotional impacts of belief/ideation than others on this forum.
    And it seems so, so hackneyed and cliched to state such things, the crimes and horror associated with the crusades or other aspects of the era in which religion had hegemony are exaggerated.

    Exaggerated by generations of opposition frequently requiring a menace in which to rally their own support or supporters or animate their movements, I'm not talking about communist atheism but all sorts of atheism from the time of the enlightenment and predating it with the humanism of the rennaisance which was Godless (the was an alternative to the Godless humanism, if you ever get a chance to read the books from that time prefaced by intros by Russell Kirk you'll get an idea).

    I would suggest that the pharoahs issue is the same as dictatorship and economic planning, its the conflating to two ideas which dont necessarily go together and the obvious abuse of a concept, in one instance religious beliefs and the other planning, by elites to exploit it.

    Intergenerational conflict has inhibited the transmission of truth or memory of what the reality of the crusades or other events treated critically by the irreligious or anti-religious too.

  10. #90
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    The greatest evil is when you see people as things


    "...And that's what your holy men discuss, is it?" [asked Granny Weatherwax.]



    "Not usually. There is a very interesting debate raging at the moment on the nature of sin. for example." [answered Mightily Oats.]



    "And what do they think? Against it, are they?"



    "It's not as simple as that. It's not a black and white issue. There are so many shades of gray."



    "Nope."



    "Pardon?"



    "There's no grays, only white that's got grubby. I'm surprised you don't know that. And sin, young man, is when you treat people like things. Including yourself. That's what sin is."



    "It's a lot more complicated than that--"



    "No. It ain't. When people say things are a lot more complicated than that, they means they're getting worried that they won't like the truth. People as things, that's where it starts."



    "Oh, I'm sure there are worse crimes--"



    "But they starts with thinking about people as things..."
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

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