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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    http://bible.cc/numbers/32-23.htm

    What do you think of this saying, "be sure of this, your sin will find you out"?

    Wisdom is perrenial but there is much which is being dumped or forgotten about.
    In the Book of Numbers, Chapter 32, Verses 20 - 25, Moses is telling the Israelites to cross the river Jordan, drive out all the people living on the other side, take their land from them, and build cities there. And if the Israelites don’t follow these instructions, "their sin will find them out" and the Lord will presumably ass-rape them.

    Gotta love the Old Testament.

  2. #12
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    I'd say it has to do with realizing that we all sin...but what you do in response to that sin will define who you are more than the sin itself will.

    Or maybe it's just "Don't sin, for if you do, what's coming to you, will."

  3. #13
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    Leaders of the community do, sure. Scaring people with fire and brimstone is just an extension of deterrence. Regardless of whether you agree that it works, certainly it is a common strategy to get people to follow the laws.

    (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deterrence_(legal))
    It just sounds to me like the stock response of secular liberals to any mention of religion, ie its all evil manipulative control freaks taking advantage of guillible useful idiots, that's a pretty cynical view of people high or low and it doesnt actually correlate with my or a lot of peoples experience day to day so why would it then?

    Instead I think its apt to be a serious reflective/thinking point being made by people who dedicated their lives to the same in order to reach their conclusions and didnt have as much in the way of diversion and cynicism to interfer with their thought processes.

    I'd have professed what you did about fourteen years ago. Or more.

  4. #14
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    It just sounds to me like the stock response of secular liberals to any mention of religion, ie its all evil manipulative control freaks taking advantage of guillible useful idiots, that's a pretty cynical view of people high or low and it doesnt actually correlate with my or a lot of peoples experience day to day so why would it then?

    Instead I think its apt to be a serious reflective/thinking point being made by people who dedicated their lives to the same in order to reach their conclusions and didnt have as much in the way of diversion and cynicism to interfer with their thought processes.

    I'd have professed what you did about fourteen years ago. Or more.
    You'd think I'd said something revolutionary. It's a blatantly obvious explanation, if you aren't emotionally attached to the idea that God personally handwrote every phrase, carefully choosing each word. Being obvious doesn't necessarily make it right, but it's telling that you're unable to attack the idea itself so you attack my (assumed) motivations instead.

    Being written in an ancient book doesn't make anything "wisdom" by default. Nor does it rule it out, of course - there are lots of wise sayings in the bible. This one in particular seems more like a not-so-subtle push to follow the rules rather than a wise proverb.
    -end of thread-

  5. #15
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    You'd think I'd said something revolutionary. It's a blatantly obvious explanation, if you aren't emotionally attached to the idea that God personally handwrote every phrase, carefully choosing each word. Being obvious doesn't necessarily make it right, but it's telling that you're unable to attack the idea itself so you attack my (assumed) motivations instead.

    Being written in an ancient book doesn't make anything "wisdom" by default. Nor does it rule it out, of course - there are lots of wise sayings in the bible. This one in particular seems more like a not-so-subtle push to follow the rules rather than a wise proverb.
    I've just highlighted that bit because I think you've included it because you feel obliged to or that you think it'll balance out what you've said so far.

    Its pretty clear what you're thinking is, I dont believe you said anything revolutionary, I dont believe you said anything obvious either but you did a great job of regurgitating some liberal prejudice. Nice.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I've just highlighted that bit because I think you've included it because you feel obliged to or that you think it'll balance out what you've said so far.

    Its pretty clear what you're thinking is, I dont believe you said anything revolutionary, I dont believe you said anything obvious either but you did a great job of regurgitating some liberal prejudice. Nice.
    I don’t mean to pre-empt Randomnity’s response to your post, but I don’t even understand what you two are debating. There is a clear threat of divine retribution there. So yeah, it’s coercive and a deterrent. It’s also some of the more fascinating prose in the Bible: God’s people preparing for war. Using the King James Version:

    In Verse 20, Moses gives the Israelites their marching orders: “...you will go armed before the Lord to war...”

    In Verse 21, Moses gives the terms of the war: “...until he hath driven out his enemies before him..”

    In Verse 22, Moses absolves the people of war guilt and promises them booty: “...ye shall return, and be guiltless before the Lord, and before Israel; and this land shall be your possession before the Lord...”

    And then in Verse 23, Moses threatens divine retribution if the people refuse to go to war: “But if ye will not do so, behold, ye have sinned against the Lord: and be sure your sin will find you out.”

    And then in Verse 24 he goes back to emphasising the positives of going to war: “Build you cities for your little ones, and folds for your sheep...”

    It’s classic carrot-and-stick: Go to war, and you get homes and land. Refuse, and the Lord will take retribution.

    It’s a great little speech. Moses is saying: “God’s got no time right now for chickenshit pacifists. Get your ass across the Jordan and kill something, or face the consequences.”

    The Old Testament is a chronicle. You can’t always take it literally, but nonetheless it chronicles real things: It’s about populations migrating, wars happening, and modern civilization being born. This sort of thing is exactly what makes the Old Testament much better reading than the New Testament. Nothing much happens in the New Testament; it’s mostly about the life of Jesus and the church reforms that came out of that. Whereas the Old Testament is epic history.

    So what’s the problem? Why not read the passage as it’s written, i.e., according to the most obvious interpretation? Moses is a general preparing his people for battle, and he’s using a little carrot-and-stick technique. The threat of divine retribution is a deterrent. The promise of booty is an incentive. Big deal. That's how you get people to go to war.

  7. #17
    Senior Member UniqueMixture's Avatar
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    It's a concept born of scarcity for the monkeys who spend their lives fighting over who owns the banana tree.
    For all that we have done, as a civilization, as individuals, the universe is not stable, and nor is any single thing within it. Stars consume themselves, the universe itself rushes apart, and we ourselves are composed of matter in constant flux. Colonies of cells in temporary alliance, replicating and decaying and housed within, an incandescent cloud of electrical impulses. This is reality, this is self knowledge, and the perception of it will, of course, make you dizzy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UniqueMixture View Post
    It's a concept born of scarcity for the monkeys who spend their lives fighting over who owns the banana tree.
    True. But it's still beautiful. War porn.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I've just highlighted that bit because I think you've included it because you feel obliged to or that you think it'll balance out what you've said so far.

    Its pretty clear what you're thinking is, I dont believe you said anything revolutionary, I dont believe you said anything obvious either but you did a great job of regurgitating some liberal prejudice. Nice.
    Wellll, this is not really a useful discussion. Again, it's interesting that you're unable or unwilling to attack the idea itself so you attack my (assumed) motivations instead. Makes for a boring "argument", though, so I'm out. cheers.
    -end of thread-

  10. #20
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    What I mean by the subjectivity of sin is this: In order for you to truly be brought to answer for your sins, you must recognize them as sins. Otherwise, in your understanding, you haven't sinned at all but actually suffered unjustly yourself.
    wails from the crypt.

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