User Tag List

123 Last

Results 1 to 10 of 98

  1. #1
    Permabanned
    Join Date
    May 2009
    MBTI
    ISFP
    Enneagram
    6w7 sx
    Socionics
    SEE Fi
    Posts
    25,301

    Default Tolerance as the Ironically Oppressive Value System

    Tolerance is very popular, even mandatory, in our society today. Of course up unto a point that is good, because it means that people of varying races, sexual orientations, religious creeds and life philosophies are free to live without persecution (or in theory should be).

    On the other hand, tolerance has, in my opinion, invaded discussions of ideas and values to the point where a person seen as having formed a strong value judgment about a particular issue or philosophy is scorned for being hateful or closed-minded, when in truth that person may have examined that issue or idea thoroughly before sincerely deciding that they could not abide it with their value system.

    It's almost reached a point with some people where it seems like an absurd trend toward anyone holding ANY VALUE JUDGMENTS at all that violate almighty "tolerance" is eschewed and, ironically, judged with the same moral or ethical fervency of the person holding the value.

    Maybe I notice this especially being a person with strong Fi development, because in my world, my value judgments are what make me...me. ExxJs and IxxPs are kind of annoying that way. The primary difference, of course, is that IRL rather than the Internet, I keep the majority of my value judgments to myself unless they are violated (thereby often appearing externally placid or easy to get along with as long as you leave me alone and/or give me my space), as where I discuss them openly and passionately in written form, because the difference I see on the Internet or in writing, is that you can choose to ignore me at any time, I'm not actually pushing my values on you, because it's the Internet, you can disengage if you so choose.

    I've just noticed this trend, and not just with Feeling types who value Tolerance Above All Else, but also with Thinking types who get pissed that you hold a strong value judgment about something they may like or enjoy.

    I just think this trend toward over-tolerance is unhealthy. There's a difference between being open-minded enough to live and let live, and being so open-minded that you become malleable, stupid, or accepting of things to the point of passivity.

    This of course isn't a comprehensive post, but it's something I've thought about A LOT in recent months.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Munchies's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    MBTI
    XNXP
    Enneagram
    OMG sx
    Socionics
    iuno
    Posts
    474

    Default

    RASCISM AGAINST RASCISM.


    The problem is hate, people will always find something to hate in par to their value system. Usually people's value systems are a collective conciousness; meaning they are not conscious at all and just follow the consensus of what is normal, in many intellectual cases, since most people have closed minded intelectualism, they do not peer far outside the box. It was normal to hate black people not long ago.Did people really evolve that much in the past 80 years, or are we still capable of the same irrational hate? Yes, yes we are
    1+1=3 OMFG

  3. #3
    Senior Member UniqueMixture's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    MBTI
    estj
    Enneagram
    378 sx/so
    Socionics
    esfp
    Posts
    3,038

    Default

    Perhaps it is better to focus on values that are positive and affirming rather than those that are negative and tell people what they cannot or should not do. There is more than one way to skin a.. life lol.
    For all that we have done, as a civilization, as individuals, the universe is not stable, and nor is any single thing within it. Stars consume themselves, the universe itself rushes apart, and we ourselves are composed of matter in constant flux. Colonies of cells in temporary alliance, replicating and decaying and housed within, an incandescent cloud of electrical impulses. This is reality, this is self knowledge, and the perception of it will, of course, make you dizzy.

  4. #4
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    5,808

    Default

    I made a far too long post about the nature of the mindset behind this. Not sure if I want to bore people with it though.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  5. #5
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    ESTJ
    Enneagram
    9 so/sx
    Posts
    21,628

    Default

    Interesting.

    Resonates yes, although I would say that most of the people who state an aversion to judgement or opinions in favour of tolerance are often just unconscious of how judgemental they are, its often the "wrong sort" of judgement they're opposed to as opposed to judgements per se.

  6. #6
    Permabanned
    Join Date
    May 2009
    MBTI
    ISFP
    Enneagram
    6w7 sx
    Socionics
    SEE Fi
    Posts
    25,301

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by UniqueMixture View Post
    Perhaps it is better to focus on values that are positive and affirming rather than those that are negative and tell people what they cannot or should not do. There is more than one way to skin a.. life lol.
    focusing only on positive values is intellectually dishonest and morally weak

  7. #7
    Senior Member UniqueMixture's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    MBTI
    estj
    Enneagram
    378 sx/so
    Socionics
    esfp
    Posts
    3,038

    Default

    My philosophy is more along the lines of "find the people who want the same things out of life that you do and do not fret over the things in life outside of your control."

    You are still of the belief that there is a "right" way to live for all people? Good luck with that. I hope it brings you peace.
    For all that we have done, as a civilization, as individuals, the universe is not stable, and nor is any single thing within it. Stars consume themselves, the universe itself rushes apart, and we ourselves are composed of matter in constant flux. Colonies of cells in temporary alliance, replicating and decaying and housed within, an incandescent cloud of electrical impulses. This is reality, this is self knowledge, and the perception of it will, of course, make you dizzy.

  8. #8
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    868

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Tolerance is very popular, even mandatory, in our society today. Of course up unto a point that is good, because it means that people of varying races, sexual orientations, religious creeds and life philosophies are free to live without persecution (or in theory should be).

    On the other hand, tolerance has, in my opinion, invaded discussions of ideas and values to the point where a person seen as having formed a strong value judgment about a particular issue or philosophy is scorned for being hateful or closed-minded, when in truth that person may have examined that issue or idea thoroughly before sincerely deciding that they could not abide it with their value system.

    It's almost reached a point with some people where it seems like an absurd trend toward anyone holding ANY VALUE JUDGMENTS at all that violate almighty "tolerance" is eschewed and, ironically, judged with the same moral or ethical fervency of the person holding the value.

    Maybe I notice this especially being a person with strong Fi development, because in my world, my value judgments are what make me...me. ExxJs and IxxPs are kind of annoying that way. The primary difference, of course, is that IRL rather than the Internet, I keep the majority of my value judgments to myself unless they are violated (thereby often appearing externally placid or easy to get along with as long as you leave me alone and/or give me my space), as where I discuss them openly and passionately in written form, because the difference I see on the Internet or in writing, is that you can choose to ignore me at any time, I'm not actually pushing my values on you, because it's the Internet, you can disengage if you so choose.

    I've just noticed this trend, and not just with Feeling types who value Tolerance Above All Else, but also with Thinking types who get pissed that you hold a strong value judgment about something they may like or enjoy.

    I just think this trend toward over-tolerance is unhealthy. There's a difference between being open-minded enough to live and let live, and being so open-minded that you become malleable, stupid, or accepting of things to the point of passivity.

    This of course isn't a comprehensive post, but it's something I've thought about A LOT in recent months.
    It's obvious we need to send you to compliance, er, I mean, sensitivity training Marmie.




  9. #9
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    12,412

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by UniqueMixture View Post
    You are still of the belief that there is a "right" way to live for all people?
    Those types of people should be tied to the roof of a car, and driven to Ontario.

  10. #10
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    FREE
    Enneagram
    594 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ne
    Posts
    42,333

    Default

    As described, that's not necessarily an issue of the promotion of hyper-tolerance, it could just be an individual with no real sense of how to express their values in a way that doesn't spew and disrupt all the other conversations going on around them.

    People are going to hold value judgments. Heck, I have value judgments of my own. The trick is in sensing how when and how strongly one can express them without being self-indulgent about them.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

Similar Threads

  1. ESTP vs ENTP - the value system
    By nanook in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 47
    Last Post: 04-09-2009, 10:14 AM
  2. The Post-Secular as the Post-1968 Generation
    By Sniffles in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 11-23-2008, 03:17 PM
  3. The Iron Man Fallacy
    By reason in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 21
    Last Post: 09-14-2008, 05:29 AM
  4. The Nature of Values
    By Kiddo in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 31
    Last Post: 06-22-2008, 02:42 PM
  5. [MBTItm] NF as the quintessential confidant.
    By Cypocalypse in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 05-31-2008, 04:50 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO