does perfect exist outside of the mind?

[man]

is there such a thing as perfection in this world

or is it only a concept

 

[Lark]

is there such a thing as perfection in this world

or is it only a concept

Hi, my names Lark.

/end thread.

 

[Munchies]

WhAT IS PERFECTION

 

[ThatsWhatHeSaid]

Hi, my names Lark.

/end thread.

Again with the apostrophes?

See? No one's perfect.

 

[Ponyboy]

Right now I think perfection would be a thread without Lark & ThatsWhatHeSaid (Who, oddly enough, doesn't have an appropriate apostrophe in his name) arguing about apostrophes or any other issues relating to grammar!

Edit: Grammar Nazis totally suck!! You guys actually make the internet not fun!! FU!!! (guys & nazis, as used here, don't require apostrophes so STFU)

 

[Fleeting]

Perfection is a human concept, and normally fairly subjective to the individual.

Some people view nature as 'perfect'.

The Taoists believed that humanity has displaced itself from nature and that in order to achieve perfection, one should observe and understand nature. The tree is strong, but breaks in the storm, while the grass bends in the wind. Which is the stronger in this scenario? The grass. All about duality. Interesting ideas. To them, water is the most perfect, because it is the ultimate 'wu wei', or effort without doing. It cuts a path through mountains, and always finds its way through everything.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wu_wei

 

[kevinlivecomau]

Perfection is when I play games like streetfighter and tekken, beating the enemy without losing any health.

 

[CrystalViolet]

Perfection is that moment where idealism and hope still prevails and reality hasn't hit yet.

 

[Qlip]

I happen to think that the mind is a sufficiently real place for something to exist.

 

[EcK]

Mhh.
I'd say the nature of perfection is that its never going to happen in finite time, and our time is ''oh so very finite''. its like wanting a spaceship but its not going to happen any time soon so you keep your car when you could be the proud owner of a cool helicopter.

 

[EcK]

is there such a thing as perfection in this world

or is it only a concept

Can even the concept of perfection be perfect ?
Everybody has their own definition of perfect, so is there an essential perfection ? You d have to assume a set of traits etc. a direction where the end of the road is perfection. But everyone has different experiences etc so can we even say there are such roads or different roads leading to the same perfection?

What if perfection is ''maxed out '' for everything at once to reach some kind of universal perfection: if something is everything at once it might as well be nothing. Structure is defined by differentials. Also mixing apple pie with beef and jello doesnt make it a good meal just because the parts are tasty independently.
And can there be perfection in a world where things can even ''be'' maxed out ? What about a world where/when we could infinitely evolve and reach ''perfection in infinite time'' (only works with constant energy addition to the system with our physics)? Even then perfection would be a direction rather than a thing. Is a direction a thing? It is certainly a concept we form in our minds.

In the end I doubt there can be perfection without the mind stating what perfection is, so it is ultimately a concept independently from how relevant the term is when applied to specific situations.

 

[EcK]

One of my majority views (yeahyeah, I am legion and all that) is that Ideals such as Love, Nobility, Justice or Perfection (which is more of a quality than an ideal in itself, then again that would apply to all ideals in reality as u cant really point at them) etc. are cultural/conceptual vectors. Value creating and affirming devices moving with their times.

People live in the short to mid range when it comes to time, we do not plan our Justice systems based on a masterplan unfolding into infinity.
For example justice when seen in actuality is a concept we apply to justify the authority of human institutions meant to have a regulatory social function.

So as part of culture these ideals are associated with sets of emotions, real and imagined situations and exist in a web of codependency. The current versions of ''justice'' stocked within the observers minds will ''taint'' the data collection and selection, this definition will then coevolve with the institutions. people and culture.

So all in all its a tag we put on things, it doesnt evolve fast enough so that we ll call it something else but if you look at what people described as say chilvalrous in the middle ages it involved murder and rape, we then selected the material according to cultural bias, reinforcing/creating our own biases.

 

[xisnotx]

Anything that leads to the result sought can be thought of as perfect (a version of it)...even if the result sought isn't in itself perfect.
So, I think so.

 

[redacted]

Perfection assumes a metric of judgment. Metrics of judgment are subjective dimensionality reductions that by definition throw out data.

So, no.

 

[citizen cane]

Perfect is a concept informed by our point of view, which is to say that it is subjective. Some worldviews, for instance many religions describe something or someone as having been or being absolutely perfect. (In the previous sentence, I mean 'absolute' in the sense that there is no room for a correct alternate interpretation.) In Christianity this is illustrated in God, Jesus, and heaven.

 

[Vilku]

Can even the concept of perfection be perfect ?
Everybody has their own definition of perfect, so is there an essential perfection ? You d have to assume a set of traits etc. a direction where the end of the road is perfection. But everyone has different experiences etc so can we even say there are such roads or different roads leading to the same perfection?

What if perfection is ''maxed out '' for everything at once to reach some kind of universal perfection: if something is everything at once it might as well be nothing. Structure is defined by differentials. Also mixing apple pie with beef and jello doesnt make it a good meal just because the parts are tasty independently.
And can there be perfection in a world where things can even ''be'' maxed out ? What about a world where/when we could infinitely evolve and reach ''perfection in infinite time'' (only works with constant energy addition to the system with our physics)? Even then perfection would be a direction rather than a thing. Is a direction a thing? It is certainly a concept we form in our minds.

In the end I doubt there can be perfection without the mind stating what perfection is, so it is ultimately a concept independently from how relevant the term is when applied to specific situations.

lets see... perfection is..
individual perception processed by internal judgment then applied to external perception so as to actualize the perfection.. hm, as long as delivery of the internally perfect perceived thing is possible to process outside, into something actual for the effects to take place exactly how it was perceived internally.. until the internal perception gains more data input, and realizes the previous image of perfection was insufficient..

hmm..

i consider a perfect stream of flawlessly flowing data inside and to the outside as perfect. achieving such requires a perfect understanding of my capabilities so as to know what is the maximum for me, thus the perfect. for example in art such as drawing, i have reached this state of perfecy where i love the results of my drawings and so does the data flow inwards, each time i learn something more of my internal mind thus creating consistent, perfect grow and perfect appreciation for my perfect art, thus i effectively create perfect to outside of my mind. however, people of different cognitive preferences are unlikely to value what i value in art and thus not consider it ultimately perfect.

but yes, perfect is very much possible, as long as your image of perfection includes being realistic. which i am.

thus perfection really is.. ability to appreciate and mallueb reality however you wish, as long as your perfect enough to know how you can achieve such. life is perfect to those who understand it. its nice to be ennea 4. with.. wing three, obviously <.<
yes i consider it a possibility to reach the perfect state of understanding and growth, as long as you can maintain it. in from where the challenge comes.. life'd be boring without.

without intelligence processing existence, it would just simply be, without something perceiving it intellectually. and as intelligent species we cant possibly imagine what unintelligent observation is, as we are intelligent even when in weirdest of dreams. and in some sense even more intelligent than at awake state.
(i at least gain god like abilities every time i sleep, dont know about others. oh, yes god liek abilities buut.. uhm, lets just say, what a drunken god would be like, is what my dreams resemble.) i find the lack of realism assessing quite refreshing, might i add. my dreams are quite realistic, except when my memory fails and i actually consciously realize i forgot an aspect of my dream and whoops, the aspect is already replaced with tomething else, like carrying guns and suddenly.. um, you have a .. steam gun? O_O.. which boils down your enemy rather painfully.

well, if i were god, id love to be drunken like that rather than bored without curiosity to satisfy.

the perfect state for intelligence is between order and chaos, and nowhere else.
and our biology agrees with my statement, if you study mind.
in other words, living in a chaos you perfectly understand is what we should strive for. yet a chaos, which you cant predict.

but yeah, if everyone reached that perfect state, no one would see point in competition for any other than purely for fun purpose as cooperation and self manipulation would be enough to make everyone survive as well as 100% happy.

too bad reaching such a state takes a lifetime, and then you die! >=[..
so unless you can make a perfect manual which others can study in a short time enough to reach perfection in their lives before reaching adulthood, which i actually consider very much possible.. just a hard task. but we are getting there, with evolution of scientific understanding, we can eventually apply it into practice with happiness/self understanding teaching in schools, and only after self understanding is reached do they actually choose their life path.

but no, im certain the sensors in power are terribly phobic of their illusion coming apart just cause majority of them believe self understanding has to be done how it works for someone else.

 

[Little_Sticks]

Perfection assumes a metric of judgment. Metrics of judgment are subjective dimensionality reductions that by definition throw out data.

So, no.

...well...saying no, answering the question, implies a metric of judgment as you've defined as subjective dimensionality in your premise. Ergo, your premise is implied in your answer, and negates its own validity.

is there such a thing as perfection in this world

or is it only a concept

I never seem to be good at getting people to think about anything, but could you argue against the following reasoning? "To know what is perfect, one must know or have an idea of the imperfect, even if the idea of imperfection is or must be intuitive or evaluated unconsciously." (if you think you can, then I'm asking you too)

 

[gmanyo]

ummm yes there is a 'perfect' things, what if you draw a perfect circle?????? obviously its perfect how could it not be!!!!!!!! youre move idiot

 

[Within]

ummm yes there is a 'perfect' things, what if you draw a perfect circle?????? obviously its perfect how could it not be!!!!!!!! youre move idiot

What color would you draw it with? Judged by the color spectrum visible to humans or other entities? How fine lines would you use? Etc...

 

[man]

ummm yes there is a 'perfect' things, what if you draw a perfect circle?????? obviously its perfect how could it not be!!!!!!!! youre move idiot

circle is what im thinking of when i post this

one can envision a perfect circle
but it imposible to draw because of dat pi, u know??