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Jesus

wildflower

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in response to me on the 'collective shadow' thread victor said:
In short, the Bible teaches theology.

i'm answering here because i think this is a better place for the discussion. i would disagree that the bible teaches theology. simply put, our beliefs about God are theology. these can be correct or incorrect or partial. whenever we come to the biblical text we bring all our biases and filters with us and our understandings from the time and place in which we reside in the world and history. so, our understanding or interpretation of scripture is not equal to scripture. it is just our understanding of it and that is why there are so many differing theologies. theologies can be right, wrong, or a mix of both. it's also helpful to remember that there is 1) God, 2) scripture which contains his inspired words, and then 3) there is our understanding of scripture and God. it is wise not to conflate these.

another thing that is helpful is to ask the right questions of the text. when people read the book of genesis and start asking scientific questions about the age of the earth they are completely missing the whole point of the book. genesis isn't about how the earth and humankind were created. it is about why they were created. none of us have all the answers by any means but at least when we can ask the right questions we are on a better track.
 

Zarathustra

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[MENTION=3325]Victor[/MENTION]: the irony is that you make this thread to argue for the smallness of Jesus, but, by making it, all you really prove is your own smallness. As Jesus said: "You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye."
 

Mole

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You're a smart guy. I think you're capable of examining both sides rather than consistently just picking the most convenient. What case(s) have you run into in your examination of Christianity that would counter such an argument that you've made? What are your perceived flaws of its position? I find it boring to rehash the most basic arguments with an Ne secondary who won't even properly canvass and critique level 1 arguments regarding the faith, as it indicates any energy invested in such a discussion on my part will be wasted.

No, no, Jennifer, because we are limited, we can only express one facet at a time, so I rely upon you to express the facets I am too limited to produce. And like the facets of a diamond, we sparkle together.
 

Mole

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Obviously not for any rational reason.
He was, allegedly, convicted, beaten, crucified and posthumously turned into the hero of a silly fairy tale. Nothing I want to achieve, really.
No, his greatness is a dogma of a belief that is very questionable as whole.

And indeed this dogma is being questioned on this very thread we are reading now.
 

Mole

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Do you have evidence for any of this? We know something about the culture and customs of Jesus' day, but really very little about Jesus himself. I suspect most of what he actually said and did is now lost to us, or substantially redacted and packaged by the religious establishment that became organized Christianity.

Yes, you are right. I only infer this from our historical knowledge of the time.
 

Mole

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1. It says right in the gospels that he did and said many things not recorded in the gospels.

“Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.” John 21:25

2. Yes he did.

“Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength. The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself. There is no commandment greater than these.” 32 “Well said, teacher,” the man replied. “You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. 33 To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.” 34 When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.” Mark 12:30-34

All discernment on how to treat another human being can be distilled from getting those two commandments right and down deep in one’s spirit. Jesus said the law, prophets, and all the commandments rest and hang on these two principles. They encompass everything - every issue, every situation. They are the governing dynamics.



3. I would encourage you to study your Bible. Ramifications of all of these scientific things are mentioned in the Bible if you study the original languages and make the connections, it’s just most people aren’t looking for them, even the vast majority of Christians. And Jesus studied (translation: read) and understood the scriptures like no other. Our minds would explode if we knew all he knew. A variety of things have led to obscuring these: man’s perversion called religion has outright opposed true understanding of the Bible’s contribution and relationship to science, lack of study and motivation on peoples’ part, as well as pretension, hostility, and bias among “intellectuals.”

4. I dig you Victor. ;)

It's true Western Civilization is based on four pillars - Ancient Greek philosophy, Judaism, Christianity and the Enlightenment. And so Western Civilization is a conversation between these four founders. And so our conversation here on Central can be seen as a continuation of this very conversation.
 

Mole

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Did Jesus create these things? To me he was a tragic figure doing the best he could with the hand he was dealt.

Edit: reread op

I think the problem is that He didn't see these things as moral problems. We can infer this because he did not speak against them.

So I am infering that He was morally blind just like all those around Him.
 
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I think it's interesting that 2,000 years after coming to earth, Jesus' mission (the will of God) is still vastly underestimated. in His time, everyone thought the messiah was coming to end the oppression of the Roman occupation of Jerusalem, but His goal was much greater, it is to save humanity.

This is merely your modern day Roman occupation complaint... and exactly like 2,000 years ago, it stems from misunderstanding about who Jesus is, where He's from, and the fact that He is the one and only way of eternal salvation.
 

Mole

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Wait is this the same Jesus who was such a fan of Love Others as Thyself?

How do you know any of this? Where's your proof?

You will find some of the proof in, "The History of Childhood", by Lloyd deMause.

Child sacrifice is the template for the christian doctrine of original sin, redemned by the blood sacrifice of the son of god.
 
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