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  1. #31
    Member Space Socks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    Of course you have to go by learnt experienced, I just meant the way long ago past. When I look back at my past, as in german history, all I find is shit therefore it aint such a good guideline.

    What I mean with self-reflection in the present is people trieing to see themselves and their actions thru the other persons eyes. Since I am from SJ-central I can tell that SJs lack that faculty the most. Most of them refer to traditions or a communally "learnt experience" and do never question themselves nor try to look at themselves thru another persons eye. That makes them calculable to me but I have yet to meet one, who tried to for example come down to my very abstract level of thought and speech. they most often force me to come to their level and to be reasonable otherwise they wont talk to me.
    Saying "never" is a bit concrete, no?

    Perhaps you are right in your own experience, but if SJs were so unable to understand or see what another person "sees" in them then they would never mature. True we can grow out of our own experiences based on our own conclusions disregarding anyone else's advice, but it's the experience involving someone else that gets us to reflect and take some kind of action. Even if we don't prove to someone that we've considered the information given, the information is still there, it's just stashed away. That's why we can become so stressed out sometimes because we can reflect and over analyze what we are given.

    Perhaps coming down to your "very abstract level of thought and speech" is a bit too abstract and not constructive enough for the discussion. There must be some middle ground, otherwise someone must be lying if all is agreed without opposing factors considered.

    I would like to add that broad thinking isn't necessarily more abstract than specific ideas.

    Wouldn't it be hypocritical to consider someone's inability to reason with you on your terms just as much as trying to with theirs? I say this based on your "specific experience" oriented descriptions.

    I agree it is annoying when one stops trying to listen because of strict views that become confronted, but I think with SJs you generally have to budge a bit, get inside their head and present your ideas from the inside. The ideas must get collected first before you pick them apart. One by one.

    With self reflection, SJs sympathize with others quite a bit because the experience we hold is just as vivid to us when some else experiences the same thing. Even if we can't relate to someone's perspective, we try look for some analogy or even different references to come up with what logically makes the most sense.

    SJs aren't incapable of perceiving themselves through others, but it's a very difficult point to get to and sometimes it has to stress us out enough to break through that wall.

    Thats why I am picking a fight when someone puts things in a huge historical content or a traditional line of logic that led to today. That of course is not wrong, by all means no, but I am a fighter for individuality and I like to be free from my past.
    If someone states it so, then you have your right of say to knock it down.
    But picking a fight (which I don't even consider this being) and then admitting you understand the opinion part of it is a bit strange to me.

    I didn't know I was treading on personal views, I was merely throwing out an idea.

    I'm glad you have something you believe strongly for, but I think individuality occurs in a single person with sequentially unique, separate experiences and not one that needs be fought for.


    Reflecting on my op, and this discussion, I believe there's much irony in the way nature works, and I think I just sought out a few of those contingencies.
    I just want to float.

  2. #32
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    women are generally more inward turned with their emotions than men are(this isnt about the orientation of F), which makes them usually more reflective over their emotions than men
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  3. #33
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Space Socks View Post
    Saying "never" is a bit concrete, no?

    Perhaps you are right in your own experience, but if SJs were so unable to understand or see what another person "sees" in them then they would never mature. True we can grow out of our own experiences based on our own conclusions disregarding anyone else's advice, but it's the experience involving someone else that gets us to reflect and take some kind of action. Even if we don't prove to someone that we've considered the information given, the information is still there, it's just stashed away. That's why we can become so stressed out sometimes because we can reflect and over analyze what we are given.

    Perhaps coming down to your "very abstract level of thought and speech" is a bit too abstract and not constructive enough for the discussion. There must be some middle ground, otherwise someone must be lying if all is agreed without opposing factors considered.

    I would like to add that broad thinking isn't necessarily more abstract than specific ideas.

    Wouldn't it be hypocritical to consider someone's inability to reason with you on your terms just as much as trying to with theirs? I say this based on your "specific experience" oriented descriptions.

    I agree it is annoying when one stops trying to listen because of strict views that become confronted, but I think with SJs you generally have to budge a bit, get inside their head and present your ideas from the inside. The ideas must get collected first before you pick them apart. One by one.

    With self reflection, SJs sympathize with others quite a bit because the experience we hold is just as vivid to us when some else experiences the same thing. Even if we can't relate to someone's perspective, we try look for some analogy or even different references to come up with what logically makes the most sense.

    SJs aren't incapable of perceiving themselves through others, but it's a very difficult point to get to and sometimes it has to stress us out enough to break through that wall.



    If someone states it so, then you have your right of say to knock it down.
    But picking a fight (which I don't even consider this being) and then admitting you understand the opinion part of it is a bit strange to me.

    I didn't know I was treading on personal views, I was merely throwing out an idea.

    I'm glad you have something you believe strongly for, but I think individuality occurs in a single person with sequentially unique, separate experiences and not one that needs be fought for.


    Reflecting on my op, and this discussion, I believe there's much irony in the way nature works, and I think I just sought out a few of those contingencies.
    I wanted to talk about how and why people self-reflect and then on a later stage find out if its either a woman or a man thing. you just did that and it was way better than putting it into an a history book like framework.

    I know I need to pick SJs to do that, but you did and I promise I'll read your post again sincerly when I have the time and comment.
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  4. #34
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    I generally find it easier to relate to females, partially because they tend to think about the sorts of things I think about more often than males on average. It's a bit hard to judge the answer to this question, though, since most girls and most guys are less reflective than I am, and my metric for reflectiveness is based around the things I reflect about.

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