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  1. #11
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    @Rel Not necessarily most....just those adherers of consequentialism.


    ....and reality can belie the truth, depending on what one views as real.
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    The more one loves God, the more it is that having nothing in the world means everything, and the less one loves God, the more it is that having everything in the world means nothing.

    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

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  2. #12
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    @AphroditeGoneAwry I suppose I can't objectively say most people only focus on the consequences, since it depends on the circumstances; however, when the situation revolves around an individual who partakes in something that is morally unacceptable, it is the gut reaction of most to ignore what lead to those actions and to tunnel-vision on the consequences.

    I can't seem to imagine a scenario where the subjective truth of one individual completely undermines reality. It can influence action, but it can't change the past and the arrangement of all things up to this point.

    Perhaps it's just where I'm sitting.

  3. #13
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rel View Post
    @AphroditeGoneAwry I suppose I can't objectively say most people only focus on the consequences, since it depends on the circumstances; however, when the situation revolves around an individual who partakes in something that is morally unacceptable, it is the gut reaction of most to ignore what lead to those actions and to tunnel-vision on the consequences.

    I can't seem to imagine a scenario where the subjective truth of one individual completely undermines reality. It can influence action, but it can't change the past and the arrangement of all things up to this point.
    Yes, most probably would do that.

    And I was just reading about an example today because another forum member mentioned Descartes' Meditations....and Descartes gave the example of a stick in water appears bent when it is, in fact, straight, etc. Reality can seem real, and therefore true, but we can be fooled by it, enough that I think reality is not necessarily a good marker for Truth.
    Ni/Ti/Fe/Si
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    ~Torah observant, Christ inspired~
    Life Path 11

    The more one loves God, the more it is that having nothing in the world means everything, and the less one loves God, the more it is that having everything in the world means nothing.

    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

    songofmary.wordpress.com


  4. #14
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Is something important because it is true or because of the implications or consequences of it being true?
    The implications or consequences are more -- well, consequential -- but will be different if they stem from something untrue. As a crude analogy: which is more important, the fact that I have edible food in my house, or the consequence of being able to use it to satisfy my hunger and feed me for the day? If the first part of the statement is not true (item is not food, or food is inedible), then the stated consequence cannot come to pass. So, the one implies or determines the other.

    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    And I was just reading about an example today because another forum member mentioned Descartes' Meditations....and Descartes gave the example of a stick in water appears bent when it is, in fact, straight, etc. Reality can seem real, and therefore true, but we can be fooled by it, enough that I think reality is not necessarily a good marker for Truth.
    The stick may NOT in fact be bent, but the image IS, due to the difference in refractive index between water and air. Thus both statements are true, though we must apply each to its proper subject. Much "untruth" comes from confusion as to what we are really looking at.
    Last edited by Coriolis; 04-26-2012 at 03:06 PM. Reason: critical error in wording (see CAPS)
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  5. #15
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    "The truth" is usually useful and significant because of its implications. You just have to get to the truth first--you can't branch out from an idea or notion unless you actually have that starting point.

    Also, @Coriolis's example.

    Of course, we all have our differing perspectives and our own version of the truth. Integrating our perspectives helps us get at what some sort of 'universal truth' might encompass.

  6. #16
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    I see Truth as a 'primary substance' if you will, that which comes before everything else.

    The implication or consequences of Truth [or Untruth] are secondary attributes, and relative to certain circumstances.

    The truth is not relative to anything else. It stands alone. Therefore it is more important.
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    — C.G. Jung

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  7. #17
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    it is the truth isn't it? how can it be separated?
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  8. #18
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Much "untruth" comes from confusion as to what we are really looking at.

    Yeah.

    And what if we choose to focus in on the image and not the stick itself. I would argue with Descartes: Is not the bent reflection just as real as the straight stick? He pointed out, aptly, that discerning reality is a dubious prospect, but the converse it also true: Our reality is ultimately defined by our focus.





    ........And, incidentally, redefining focus is the essence of Ni.
    Ni/Ti/Fe/Si
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    ~Torah observant, Christ inspired~
    Life Path 11

    The more one loves God, the more it is that having nothing in the world means everything, and the less one loves God, the more it is that having everything in the world means nothing.

    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

    songofmary.wordpress.com


  9. #19
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    There's truth with a small 't' and Truth with a capital 'T'.

    And it is Truth with a capital 'T' that the religious kill for. In Iraq for instance if you don't hold the correct Truth, you will be killed. And in Iraq if you don't hold the correct version of the Truth you will also be killed.

    And the truth with a small 't' is held by scientists. And who ever heard of a scientist killing another scientist over the truth.

    In fact scientific truth is universal. There is not an Islamic biology; there is not a Catholic biology; there is not even a Buddhist biology; there is only biology. So biology is universal.

    So truth with a small 't', rather than Truth with a capital 'T', forms the basis for the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

  10. #20
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    the truth of a logical fact is not relevent to me-only what can I do with it. The truth of an emotional, of authetic expression is of supreme value.

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