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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Jesus did not condemn institutional slavery, and so cast our collective shadow.
    Victor? :\

    Are you testing my active listening skills?

  2. #22
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    The purpose of His message was not to condemn institutional slavery, directly. If people saw themselves as needy creatures in need of grace, then they would not be able to lord over others, and that was what His teachings pointed to. Slavery was just a symptom of man's "collective shadow" like every other sin.
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd Girl View Post
    Victor? :\

    Are you testing my active listening skills?
    It would actually be a good test of your active listening skills as you could be expected to strongly disagree with my statement.

    So Brere Fox you could practise your active listening skills, or you could make a counter statement which I am sure you are more than capable of, or perhaps you could put my statement into theological perspective, or you could analyse the psychlogical implications of my statement. Or you could ask, why would I make such an outlandish statement? Or perhaps you could pray for me hoping for a change of heart. But failing all, throw me back into the briar patch.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    The purpose of His message was not to condemn institutional slavery, directly. If people saw themselves as needy creatures in need of grace, then they would not be able to lord over others, and that was what His teachings pointed to. Slavery was just a symptom of man's "collective shadow" like every other sin.
    Theology teaches us that Jesus was born without Original Sin and remained sinless all His life. And yet by not condemning institutional slavery which was all around Him, He became complicit.

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    No He wasn't; unless you believe it was His duty to wipe out all evil right then on the spot. That's actually what the people who rejected Him were expecting in a Messiah (so yes, they basically He was complicit in sin), and we all feel that way sometimes, but man needed salvation from the penalty of sin (spiritual death) more than a world where all sin is wiped out. For that would be basically wiping all of us out, as the Noah story showed us.
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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    No He wasn't; unless you believe it was His duty to wipe out all evil right then on the spot. That's actually what the people who rejected Him were expecting in a Messiah (so yes, they basically He was complicit in sin), and we all feel that way sometimes, but man needed salvation from the penalty of sin (spiritual death) more than a world where all sin is wiped out. For that would be basically wiping all of us out, as the Noah story showed us.
    This historical reality is that institutional slavery was first abolished by the House of Commons in Britain in 1833.

    So it was the Enlightenment and Liberal Democracy that abolished institutional slavery for the first time in human history.

    And the abolition of slavery led to the emancipation of women for the first time in human history at the beginning of the 20th century in Australia and New Zealand. Both countries founded by the Enlightenment and Liberal Democracy.

    And the abolition of slavery and the emancipation of women led to the prosecution in our criminal courts of child sexual abusers for the first time in human history in the last decade of the 20th century. But only in countries of the Enlightenment and Liberal Democracy.

    And it is also an historical fact that theology never abolished institutional slavery, emancipated women, or prosecuted child sexual abusers.

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    And those movements were influenced by theology, even if they may have been going against what was conventional at the time. "Theology" does not equate to Jesus Christ; it's fallible men's attempt at understanding Him (or, unfortunately in many cases, using Him for their own goals).
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    This historical reality is that institutional slavery was first abolished by the House of Commons in Britain in 1833.

    So it was the Enlightenment and Liberal Democracy that abolished institutional slavery for the first time in human history.

    And the abolition of slavery led to the emancipation of women for the first time in human history at the beginning of the 20th century in Australia and New Zealand. Both countries founded by the Enlightenment and Liberal Democracy.

    And the abolition of slavery and the emancipation of women led to the prosecution in our criminal courts of child sexual abusers for the first time in human history in the last decade of the 20th century. But only in countries of the Enlightenment and Liberal Democracy.

    And it is also an historical fact that theology never abolished institutional slavery, emancipated women, or prosecuted child sexual abusers.
    victor, there were a lot of different people that were involved in abolishing slavery. quakers were some of the first and william wilberforce, an anglican clergyman and member of the british parliament was one of the driving forces in the parliament to abolish slavery. you can see a whole list of folks who opposed slavery at the abolition project's site and quite a few are christians. i also know it was the quakers who were fighting for first wave feminism in the US with their work and influence in the suffrage movement.

    eta:

    additionally, there are numerous christian groups currently fighting against the various forms of modern day slavery: human trafficking. international justice mission is one of the larger and more well-known ones.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildflower View Post
    victor, there were a lot of different people that were involved in abolishing slavery. quakers were some of the first and william wilberforce, an anglican clergyman and member of the british parliament was one of the driving forces in the parliament to abolish slavery. you can see a whole list of folks who opposed slavery at the abolition project's site and quite a few are christians. i also know it was the quakers who were fighting for first wave feminism in the US with their work and influence in the suffrage movement.

    eta:

    additionally, there are numerous christian groups currently fighting against the various forms of modern day slavery: human trafficking. international justice mission is one of the larger and more well-known ones.
    For almost 2,000 years christianity failed to abolish slavery, child sexual abuse and women as chattels. However when some christians and others were informed by the Enlightenment and enabled by Liberal Democracy, institutional slavery was abolished for the first time and later women were emancipated and child sexual abusers were prosecuted.

  10. #30
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    The mistake here is to focus on "Christianity". It's not about "Christianity, in fact, the word is not even mentioned in the Bible. Yes, Christianity has claimed to uphold God's Law, while the rest of the world is deemed "lost" in their "sin" (based on their wrong beliefs and/or "lawlessness"), and judged by that standard, yes, Christianity fails miserably. (Romans 2:1)

    But it's not about Christianity, it's about God and His Grace. In the system of soteriology I believe in now, all has been "fulfilled" (Where much of Christianity is still waiting for a "return" that was supposed to be "soon"), and God's Spirit has been "poured out on all flesh" (Joel 2:28/Acts 2:17).
    While it may not seem like it, as the Church has made us accustomed to thinking of the influence of the Spirit as causing good behavior, this can be understood as a greater level of conscience in mankind, compared to ancient times. This would be a part of what some acknowledge as "common grace".

    This is basically what you're describing, regarding slavery being abolished due to movements such as the Enlightenment.
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