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  1. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Do you want to play the I Was Right Game with me?
    Oh, look at the time. Sorry, something just came up...

  2. #162
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    olk so does this bother anyone else he says the gospel, which are matthew,mark,luke, and john but quotes verses from other parts of the bible.
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  3. #163
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    Yes, but WHY?

    What did he accomplish on the cross? Anything?
    He was God incarnate, come to share in the experience of life and the experience of death, it was and is what sets apart the Abrahamic traditions' God from any other conception of God that there is.

    Its why the cross is an important symbol, it symbolises that God is not a distant wonder to be feared and in awe of but one of us, capable of sharing in life and death like us. I think that this still happens and that through each of us God experiences his creation and that is our purpose, not to flatter God, who needs no flattery, but made in his image and sharing of his essence, not in the way that Jesus did though.

    The idea that Jesus was a sacrificial lamb to wipe out sin is fundamentally flawed, it is within God's power to wipe out sin, to make sure sin just never happens and I believe that would have been the consequence of Jesus' death if it were the case that he was sent for that purpose. He died because of sin. Sin is the rejection of God.

    Rejection of him in the shape of your fellow man or creation, creation more generally or life, living and love but also rejection of God in the sense of a benevolent deity. It happens all the time, understandable perhaps when people have no direct experience and doubt over rides everything else, apart from this one time when it did LITERALLY happen, he was here in person and people did have direct experience of him.

    The saviour aspect is that Jesus evidenced the living God, that should remove fear and doubt, he provided simplified and sought to popularise teachings which will make this heaven for everyone if consistently practiced by all, although we have to save ourselves too because we have to hear, reflect and practice, afterall its us that are the source of sin. Would sin exist if mankind didnt? No sin wouldnt, how could it? Does sin exist in the natural world, no instinct and impulse does but cognition and affect and decision in the way that it does in humans, we're the only ones like that.

  4. #164
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    Personally, what I find more profound is that he willingly went on the cross in the first place. There is the salvation message that emphasizes the act as cosmic and sacrificial and providing atonement in some mysterious way, but I wish people would talk about how much he demonstrates here in a down to earth way. It's something I find much more difficult to do than simply believe.

    The Last Supper speech...the last message he wanted to pound into his disciples' heads... is that they must each be servants to each other. That that was how they would truly be his followers. He didn't say just believe in him. He wanted them to be "excellent to each other". Oh wait, that was Bill and Ted.... nevermind.
    It depends on how you view it. It wasn't just a service to mankind, it was also obedience to God the father in the face of something he clearly did not want to experience... "take this cup (of wrath) from me."

    But, people don't like hearing about obeying authority unto suffering.

    To me the under emphasized part of the story is the resurrection. It's a pretty depressing story if you leave Christ in the grave and don't emphasize the victory over death.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  5. #165
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    What inclines you to such a high view of human ability or low view of God's demands?
    God makes no demands of man, man makes demands of God and God answers. Most of the time.

    I have a high view of human ability? I dont think ability has anything to do with it but I have a high view of humanity, precisely because God does, because we are made in God's image each of us, because humanity matters to God in scriptures and to Jesus/God incarnate when he was here.

    You make God's relationship to man sound like a celestial or cosmic kiing, that is why I say it sounds like Zeus in mount olympus, God's relationship to man is like that of unrequited love or the love someone has for someone out of their mind or insensible, the love that doesnt quit.

    Hell in this life or the next is estrangement from God, I dont believe in seperate places or fates or finality, these are human, all to human precepts and formulas, God is capable of more than that.

  6. #166
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    I have been working my way through the Bible for the first time in my life. I am enjoying it immensely, and I find it helps center me every day, to read about God and Godly intentions.


    I cannot seem to embrace the notion that Jesus is the son of God though, at least not in a way that is different than any one of us being the son of God. And I really cannot believe he rose from the dead to ascend into Heaven; it is just too hard for me to suspend my disbelief enough to buy that.


    I also somewhat feel, that since the Bible was written by men, that it almost feels like a barrier in some ways to God. I prefer to hear God speak directly to me in the ways I hear him best (my intuition, etc), versus taking as Divine words in a book written by people who lived ? 2000 years ago? I mean, how do we really know that God felt that way about Jesus. We really only have Jesus' word for it (that he was the son of God), and the mystery of his body's disappearance from his burial tomb (which, from what I understand, was unguarded for those few days).


    I think it's holier to feel that one-on-one intimate connection with God, than to let the Bible come between us, though, like I said, I think the Bible is a great tool for the deliverence of God's Divine message and love for us, and an epic historical document.
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  7. #167
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    I have been working my way through the Bible for the first time in my life. I am enjoying it immensely, and I find it helps center me every day, to read about God and Godly intentions.


    I cannot seem to embrace the notion that Jesus is the son of God though, at least not in a way that is different than any one of us being the son of God. And I really cannot believe he rose from the dead to ascend into Heaven; it is just too hard for me to suspend my disbelief enough to buy that.


    I also somewhat feel, that since the Bible was written by men, that it almost feels like a barrier in some ways to God. I prefer to hear God speak directly to me in the ways I hear him best (my intuition, etc), versus taking as Divine words in a book written by people who lived ? 2000 years ago? I mean, how do we really know that God felt that way about Jesus. We really only have Jesus' word for it (that he was the son of God), and the mystery of his body's disappearance from his burial tomb (which, from what I understand, was unguarded for those few days).


    I think it's holier to feel that one-on-one intimate connection with God, than to let the Bible come between us, though, like I said, I think the Bible is a great tool for the deliverence of God's Divine message and love for us, and an epic historical document.
    Good luck. It's a lot to digest, I know.

    I think Spurgeon will condemn you to hell though. Let me just get his trolling out of the way for you: It's a sin to "search". You must testify fully right here before Spurgeon of the Six Facts Plainly Revealed.. or it's bye-bye time for you.


  8. #168
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    You make God's relationship to man sound like a celestial or cosmic kiing, that is why I say it sounds like Zeus in mount olympus, God's relationship to man is like that of unrequited love or the love someone has for someone out of their mind or insensible, the love that doesnt quit.

    I can imagine reading the NT alone and maybe coming to your position if I also had some other outside influence on my thought.

    I think though, that if you read the OT and NT together it becomes very apparent that God is the King and that justice demands that we serve him and not that he serve us. Yet, as you note above he has humbled himself and sought after us and sought to serve us. This is exactly why you see the wedding analogy in scripture where Christ is the dutiful bridegroom and the church is a whore of a bride.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  9. #169
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    It depends on how you view it. It wasn't just a service to mankind, it was also obedience to God the father in the face of something he clearly did not want to experience... "take this cup (of wrath) from me."

    But, people don't like hearing about obeying authority unto suffering.

    To me the under emphasized part of the story is the resurrection. It's a pretty depressing story if you leave Christ in the grave and don't emphasize the victory over death.
    I do think that obedience to legitimate authority is an important thing, I do think that it can involve suffering and is as worthy of dying for as fighting illegitimate authority or oppression.

    However, I dont see it being that way exactly, the whole detailed recording of events from the moment of Jesus arrest, the trial, the role of the seperate authorities, Hebrew and Roman, is all there for a reason and its NOT recriminations. I believe it is because right up until and including the last moments of Jesus it did not have to be that way.

    Any of the soldiers, onlookers, others could have tried to stop it but they didnt but there is no need to believe that it was a fatalistic predestined sequence of events. What it is is a record of the failings of humankind, we dont live up to what we could be or should be, we fall short and are imperfect despite the potential (that's what infuriated Lucifer et al and lead to their betrayal of God).

    It happened because both Jesus and God had hope and trusted in man's better selves. They still do and always will, until mankind is worthy of it. Then perhaps finally a world will exist in which the prescence of God can return and finally God himself.

  10. #170
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    I have been working my way through the Bible for the first time in my life. I am enjoying it immensely, and I find it helps center me every day, to read about God and Godly intentions.


    I cannot seem to embrace the notion that Jesus is the son of God though, at least not in a way that is different than any one of us being the son of God. And I really cannot believe he rose from the dead to ascend into Heaven; it is just too hard for me to suspend my disbelief enough to buy that.


    I also somewhat feel, that since the Bible was written by men, that it almost feels like a barrier in some ways to God. I prefer to hear God speak directly to me in the ways I hear him best (my intuition, etc), versus taking as Divine words in a book written by people who lived ? 2000 years ago? I mean, how do we really know that God felt that way about Jesus. We really only have Jesus' word for it (that he was the son of God), and the mystery of his body's disappearance from his burial tomb (which, from what I understand, was unguarded for those few days).


    I think it's holier to feel that one-on-one intimate connection with God, than to let the Bible come between us, though, like I said, I think the Bible is a great tool for the deliverence of God's Divine message and love for us, and an epic historical document.
    This is interesting, while I dont agree entirely I think it is more insightful than biblical literalism.

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