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Beliefs

Munchies

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You can complicate anything until infinity. Point is, if you stand for nothing, you will follow the herd of sheeple/lemmings off the cliff. You can either have your set of ideas, or you can take the ideas of others, which means you have no solid foundation, and you will fall, for anything;almost
 

Lark

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Skepticism would be fine if it wasnt such a bed fellow for nihilism, see the what's the point thread to see what I'm talking about.
 

Lark

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You can complicate anything until infinity. Point is, if you stand for nothing, you will follow the herd of sheeple/lemmings off the cliff. You can either have your set of ideas, or you can take the ideas of others, which means you have no solid foundation, and you will fall, for anything;almost

Geeze Munchies had a lucid moment! ;)
 

RaptorWizard

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I like metaphysics because it is about endlessly probing and gathering information about every possibility rather than jumping to conclusions.
 

Winds of Thor

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People have to believe in something.

And.

If you dont believe in something, you'll fall for anything.

Do you agree with either of these statements? Why? Why not?

I think a third part could include what context. It seems to me context is usually what determines the strength of someone's position.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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The question of rationality as belief comes down to a question of internally derived vs. externally validated conclusions. If the concept of belief is viewed purely from the standpoint of internally structured ideas, then it is possible to create a position of relativism in which "all beliefs are equal". Rationalism, spiritualism, or anything else when derived from a primarily internal standpoint are just examples of how the mind can construct systems to represent its perception of reality. To some extent this is true because we are beholden to our perceptions.

What rationalism attempts to do is to test internal ideas against the external world. The scientific method attempts to hold the internal world of ideas accountable to externally provable demonstrations. So while it is possible to have a belief in rationalism, even "faith" in it, its premise is to not have the internal self as the primary point of reference for validating conclusions.

In my life and work I encounter a broad range of processes that create conclusions. I am married to a high-level scientist who works with others to test data in a rationalistic, objective manner. I have family who are strongly emotional in their thought processes and conclusions, and I work with special needs students, some of whom have mental illnesses. I have one student in particular who has a desire for reason and for creating coherent systems of ideas, but he doesn't have the internal tools, and so ends up forcing what he perceives into arbitrary structures that are bizarre. He "believes" in reason, but does not have a system of holding his ideas accountable to consistent external demonstration, and so his conclusions are not rational.

The question of belief or not belief and the vulnerability of falling for conclusions that randomly come your way also has to do with how your internal system of ideas is structured to deal with new information. If the "belief" system is a closed system that is not verifiable and cannot be held accountable by external measurements, then holding on to it would be the best way to not quickly fall for a random idea or system that comes your way. It will also make it impossible to integrate more accurate information. Being open minded, or even not "believing in anything", can mean that a person has an open system that focuses on continual revision based on new data. The best way I know to be open to revision is to makes one's internal ideas beholden to external validation rather than internal perception alone.
 

The Outsider

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Yes, I believe that my senses give me data that is relevant to me and that the observable world wasn't created by some malicious demiurge with the intention of misleading me.

I also believe that my morning bus will arrive on time; +/- 5 minutes.
 

Mole

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Yes, I believe that my senses give me data that is relevant to me and that the observable world wasn't created by some malicious demiurge with the intention of misleading me.

I also believe that my morning bus will arrive on time; +/- 5 minutes.

For 200,000 years our senses have deceived us into thinking that the Sun went round the Earth.

For 200,000 years our senses deceived us by not seeing the germs that caused disease, and so we were deceived into thinking disease was caused by demons. Gosh, even Jesus cast out demons.

For 200,000 years our senses have deceived us in almost any field we can think of, from Physics to Astronomy, from Power Politics to Economics, from Genetics to the Origin of Species.

In the Enlightenment we learnt that our senses are unreliable in any sphere except the sphere immediately surrounding us, such as the time our morning bus arrives.

But still after the Enlightenment of the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, we still trust our senses in nineteenth century racism, in astrology, in mbti, and in all the pseudo sciences and New Age practices and beliefs.

Just read the posts on Central and we see our minds are still conditioned by 200,000 years of superstition, and see, that as far as Central is concerned, the Enlightenment may as well not have occurred.
 

The Outsider

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For 200,000 years our senses have deceived us into thinking that the Sun went round the Earth.

For 200,000 years our senses deceived us by not seeing the germs that caused disease, and so we were deceived into thinking disease was caused by demons. Gosh, even Jesus cast out demons.

For 200,000 years our senses have deceived us in almost any field we can think of, from Physics to Astronomy, from Power Politics to Economics, from Genetics to the Origin of Species.

In the Enlightenment we learnt that our senses are unreliable in any sphere except the sphere immediately surrounding us, such as the time our morning bus arrives.

But still after the Enlightenment of the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, we still trust our senses in nineteenth century racism, in astrology, in mbti, and in all the pseudo sciences and New Age practices and beliefs.

Just read the posts on Central and we see our minds are still conditioned by 200,000 years of superstition, and see, that as far as Central is concerned, the Enlightenment may as well not have occurred.

I said data that is relevant to me, not data that is correct. Yes, the actual world may be vastly different from how I perceive it, or it may not even exist, but having belief in my immediate sense-data insofar as it allows me to operate in my perceived world is necessary.

And there's nothing inherently wrong about the idea that Sun goes around Earth.
 

Mole

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It's all good

And there's nothing inherently wrong about the idea that Sun goes around Earth.

It is actually wrong.

Our senses have deceived us for almost as long as we have been on Earth. But since the Enlightenment we have been able to prove mathematically that the Earth goes round the Sun.

In general we are familiar and practised with things our own size, but once things get too big or too small, they become counter-intuitive, and we can't imagine them anymore.

So outside our own size the universe is hard, even impossible, to understand except mathematically.

MBTI, for instance, can be shown to be mathematically false, but no one cares because we prefer to trust our common senses rather than mathematics - and so naturally we are led into delusion.

And we are led into delusion by institutions who need to control us such as the military and business, called by President Eisenhower, "The Military/Industrial Complex".

But hey, really, it's all just a joke, nobody takes it seriously, it's all good, it's all just good clean fun.
 

ygolo

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People have to believe in something.

I suppose this depends what you mean by "believe".

We can act on tentative "beliefs." There are varying degrees of confidence in these beliefs.

I cannot explicitly give my algorithm for my confidence, but generally, the more solid evidence I have about something, the more confidence I will have for it.

If you dont believe in something, you'll fall for anything.

I think this is B.S. "Believing in" something is quite different from having a certain degree of confidence in something due to evidence (as above).

I have actually found that better agreement and more stable truths are discovered through doubt than faith.

Do you agree with either of these statements? Why? Why not?

I somewhat agree with the first statement.

The second statement is evidently false. Since, I don't really "believe in" anything, and didn't fall for that particular statement. :wink:
 

The Outsider

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It is actually wrong.

No it's not.
The universe doesn't exist on a grid.

Our senses have deceived us for almost as long as we have been on Earth. But since the Enlightenment we have been able to prove mathematically that the Earth goes round the Sun.

Mathematics hasn't proven anything outside of itself.
 

LEGERdeMAIN

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It is actually wrong.

Our senses have deceived us for almost as long as we have been on Earth. But since the Enlightenment we have been able to prove mathematically that the Earth goes round the Sun.

Maybe we should somehow prevent the earth from rotating on it's axis so that a day would last for six months. a sunrise per year. Do you think this would lead people to appreciate our sunrises and sunsets a bit more, and our environment and the species that populate it? Do you think they would become more compassionate and military powers would melt down all of their guns and reshape them as plows and rebar to make free homes for everyone?
 

Munchies

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hmm seems I have won, WINNER! ( Walks out room with self-validation, with arms raised in air)
 

Rasofy

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People have to believe in something.
No.
If you dont believe in something, you'll fall for anything.
Nah. That's theist pseudologic.
avatar131_1.gif
 

Mycroft

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How do we even define "belief"? As an emotional state, like strength of conviction? As a degree of certitude on some basis? And then on what basis, and how do we agree on this basis?
 
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