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Thread: Beliefs

  1. #21
    Senior Member Munchies's Avatar
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    You can complicate anything until infinity. Point is, if you stand for nothing, you will follow the herd of sheeple/lemmings off the cliff. You can either have your set of ideas, or you can take the ideas of others, which means you have no solid foundation, and you will fall, for anything;almost
    1+1=3 OMFG

  2. #22

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    Skepticism would be fine if it wasnt such a bed fellow for nihilism, see the what's the point thread to see what I'm talking about.

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Munchies View Post
    You can complicate anything until infinity. Point is, if you stand for nothing, you will follow the herd of sheeple/lemmings off the cliff. You can either have your set of ideas, or you can take the ideas of others, which means you have no solid foundation, and you will fall, for anything;almost
    Geeze Munchies had a lucid moment!

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    I like metaphysics because it is about endlessly probing and gathering information about every possibility rather than jumping to conclusions.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Winds of Thor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    People have to believe in something.

    And.

    If you dont believe in something, you'll fall for anything.

    Do you agree with either of these statements? Why? Why not?
    I think a third part could include what context. It seems to me context is usually what determines the strength of someone's position.
    "..And the eight and final rule: If this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight."
    'Men are meant to be with women. The rest is perversion and mental illness.'

  6. #26
    Senior Member EvidenceOfRedemption's Avatar
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    Who a person believes in, a person reflects.

  7. #27
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    The question of rationality as belief comes down to a question of internally derived vs. externally validated conclusions. If the concept of belief is viewed purely from the standpoint of internally structured ideas, then it is possible to create a position of relativism in which "all beliefs are equal". Rationalism, spiritualism, or anything else when derived from a primarily internal standpoint are just examples of how the mind can construct systems to represent its perception of reality. To some extent this is true because we are beholden to our perceptions.

    What rationalism attempts to do is to test internal ideas against the external world. The scientific method attempts to hold the internal world of ideas accountable to externally provable demonstrations. So while it is possible to have a belief in rationalism, even "faith" in it, its premise is to not have the internal self as the primary point of reference for validating conclusions.

    In my life and work I encounter a broad range of processes that create conclusions. I am married to a high-level scientist who works with others to test data in a rationalistic, objective manner. I have family who are strongly emotional in their thought processes and conclusions, and I work with special needs students, some of whom have mental illnesses. I have one student in particular who has a desire for reason and for creating coherent systems of ideas, but he doesn't have the internal tools, and so ends up forcing what he perceives into arbitrary structures that are bizarre. He "believes" in reason, but does not have a system of holding his ideas accountable to consistent external demonstration, and so his conclusions are not rational.

    The question of belief or not belief and the vulnerability of falling for conclusions that randomly come your way also has to do with how your internal system of ideas is structured to deal with new information. If the "belief" system is a closed system that is not verifiable and cannot be held accountable by external measurements, then holding on to it would be the best way to not quickly fall for a random idea or system that comes your way. It will also make it impossible to integrate more accurate information. Being open minded, or even not "believing in anything", can mean that a person has an open system that focuses on continual revision based on new data. The best way I know to be open to revision is to makes one's internal ideas beholden to external validation rather than internal perception alone.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
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  8. #28
    Senior Member The Outsider's Avatar
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    Yes, I believe that my senses give me data that is relevant to me and that the observable world wasn't created by some malicious demiurge with the intention of misleading me.

    I also believe that my morning bus will arrive on time; +/- 5 minutes.

  9. #29
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Outsider View Post
    Yes, I believe that my senses give me data that is relevant to me and that the observable world wasn't created by some malicious demiurge with the intention of misleading me.

    I also believe that my morning bus will arrive on time; +/- 5 minutes.
    For 200,000 years our senses have deceived us into thinking that the Sun went round the Earth.

    For 200,000 years our senses deceived us by not seeing the germs that caused disease, and so we were deceived into thinking disease was caused by demons. Gosh, even Jesus cast out demons.

    For 200,000 years our senses have deceived us in almost any field we can think of, from Physics to Astronomy, from Power Politics to Economics, from Genetics to the Origin of Species.

    In the Enlightenment we learnt that our senses are unreliable in any sphere except the sphere immediately surrounding us, such as the time our morning bus arrives.

    But still after the Enlightenment of the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, we still trust our senses in nineteenth century racism, in astrology, in mbti, and in all the pseudo sciences and New Age practices and beliefs.

    Just read the posts on Central and we see our minds are still conditioned by 200,000 years of superstition, and see, that as far as Central is concerned, the Enlightenment may as well not have occurred.

  10. #30
    Senior Member The Outsider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    For 200,000 years our senses have deceived us into thinking that the Sun went round the Earth.

    For 200,000 years our senses deceived us by not seeing the germs that caused disease, and so we were deceived into thinking disease was caused by demons. Gosh, even Jesus cast out demons.

    For 200,000 years our senses have deceived us in almost any field we can think of, from Physics to Astronomy, from Power Politics to Economics, from Genetics to the Origin of Species.

    In the Enlightenment we learnt that our senses are unreliable in any sphere except the sphere immediately surrounding us, such as the time our morning bus arrives.

    But still after the Enlightenment of the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, we still trust our senses in nineteenth century racism, in astrology, in mbti, and in all the pseudo sciences and New Age practices and beliefs.

    Just read the posts on Central and we see our minds are still conditioned by 200,000 years of superstition, and see, that as far as Central is concerned, the Enlightenment may as well not have occurred.
    I said data that is relevant to me, not data that is correct. Yes, the actual world may be vastly different from how I perceive it, or it may not even exist, but having belief in my immediate sense-data insofar as it allows me to operate in my perceived world is necessary.

    And there's nothing inherently wrong about the idea that Sun goes around Earth.

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