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  1. #41
    Senior Member Forever_Jung's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    Poetry was not always a dead art form, but that is what it is today. That is because poetry is only written to be enjoyed by other poets
    +1

    As Kurt Vonnegut once said:

    "Literature should not disappear up its own asshole, so to speak."

  2. #42
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forever_Jung View Post
    +1

    As Kurt Vonnegut once said:

    "Literature should not disappear up its own asshole, so to speak."

    That's great! Makes me want to read Slaughterhouse 5. I don't know much about Adrian Mitchell, but this is a quote I like from him.

    "Most people ignore most poetry because most poetry ignores most people."
    -Adrian Mitchell
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  3. #43
    small potatoes NotOfTwo's Avatar
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    I love simple poetry that surprises me, that encapsulation of image/feeling into words. If I have to interpret it, it loses its charm for me.
    "It's never enough." The Cure

  4. #44
    Senior Member Winds of Thor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Illmatic View Post
    Well I studied a lot of poetry in high school and the teacher would find all these abstract connections and realize small details about a poem that are so abstract.

    I was wondering when these poets write them do they actually incorporate all these different meanings to it? Or does everyone have a different interpretation to these poems? Like when a teacher goes 'Robert Frost has clever done.....' I think to myself 'did Robert Frost really do that on purpose'?
    I went to an excellent art school.

    Only an artistic genius will generate the creative intricacies which show deliberate abstractions in the work.

    A lot of art critics project ideas onto works. Often times an expert art critic will be hired and will create a sophisticated, highly detailed often esoteric description of the works. These experts are really mainly gifted, persuasive writers. And it's this that more or less ends up making the art something of perceived value. For business. If you read some of them, you can see by the wording how the appeal is to wealthy people interested in some seriosly intellectual descriptive forms.
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  5. #45
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Most people don't find literature as accessible as other art forms generally. Movies get more attention than books. I suppose poetry is a step beyond that. It demands a very different way of looking at things and perhaps more effort and I think most people don't want to go there or can't make the mental/emotional leap. That's fine, but it kind of bothers me that others will dismiss all of "modern poetry" out of hand because of that. Literature speaks to me more than other art forms, not less, and poetry often speaks to me more than other forms of literature. I am not saying that because I want to be pretentious, it's the sincere truth.

    Yes, part of the problem can be that it can too easily turn into a middle class enclave of navel gazers...however, this doesn't have to be the case and actually in my current country (the UK) modern poetry has become quite fashionable/popular in recent years. Bloodaxe Books produced a few great anthologies - Being Alive, Staying Alive, Being Human - which present accessible modern poetry and they have been hugely popular.

    I agree with some of the comments about modern art which personally I don't care for at all. But I'm not going to dismiss the views of someone who loves it. I know artists personally who work in genres ranging from children's illustration to conceptual art, and I can tell you that there are a million different ways to come at these questions. These are languages, essentially. Some work may be required to appreciate and use them. Having done some of that work and having a basic appreciation of literature and a grasp of metaphoric language, I can honestly say that there are days when I can read a poem and it makes more sense to me than anything I've heard or read all day. Saying that something is useless and meaningless because you don't INSTANTLY love it and fully comprehend it, as some of you seem to have, comes across as not just short sighted (because it's up to you whether you want to explore poetry) but incredibly condescending.
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  6. #46
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    Shakespeare is not literature. It's meant to be performed in a play. (Bill Shakespeare didn't even write out coherent scripts. They were just fragments that people compiled later.) Likewise poetry is not meant to be read. It's meant to be heard by someone who is speaking with emotional power.

    Shall I compare thee to a summer's day play?
    Thou art more lovely and more temperate.
    Rough winds do shake the darling buds of May,
    And summer's lease hath all too short a date.
    Sometime too hot the eye of heaven shines,
    And often is his gold complexion dimmed;
    And every fair from fair sometime declines,
    By chance, or nature's changing course, untrimmed;
    But thy eternal summer shall not fade,
    Nor lose possession of that fair thou ow'st,
    Nor shall death brag thou wand'rest in his shade,
    When in eternal lines to Time thou grow'st.
    So long as men can breathe, or eyes can see,
    So long lives this, and this gives life to thee.
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  7. #47
    Senior Member Forever_Jung's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    Saying that something is useless and meaningless because you don't INSTANTLY love it and fully comprehend it, as some of you seem to have, comes across as not just short sighted (because it's up to you whether you want to explore poetry) but incredibly condescending.
    Well I dunno if you're talking about me (among others), but I did post that Vonnegut quote, so I thought I should add that I don't think ALL modern poetry is bad. I just find a lot of the writers/artists I know seem to think that just because a poem is esoteric and experimental than it must be good. And they tend to scoff at something that isn't so "deep". I just don't believe in difficulty for its own sake. A poem teases its audience, it doesn't reject it entirely. You dim the lights, you don't just flip them off. Otherwise you're not being poetic, you're just hiding behind its obscurity. These poets are saying: "Man my poem is awesome. Oh you don't like it? That's okay, I didn't expect YOU to get it anyway." It's like that Mormon guy: "I found these gold tablets with the word of God on them, but no one is allowed to see them. But take my word for it, this is a world-changing event yo."

  8. #48
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forever_Jung View Post
    Well I dunno if you're talking about me (among others), but I did post that Vonnegut quote, so I thought I should add that I don't think ALL modern poetry is bad. I just find a lot of the writers/artists I know seem to think that just because a poem is esoteric and experimental than it must be good. And they tend to scoff at something that isn't so "deep". I just don't believe in difficulty for its own sake. A poem teases its audience, it doesn't reject it entirely. You dim the lights, you don't just flip them off. Otherwise you're not being poetic, you're just hiding behind its obscurity. These poets are saying: "Man my poem is awesome. Oh you don't like it? That's okay, I didn't expect YOU to get it anyway." It's like that Mormon guy: "I found these gold tablets with the word of God on them, but no one is allowed to see them. But take my word for it, this is a world-changing event yo."
    No, I definitely agree that esoteric doesn't necessarily automatically mean good. Often it doesn't. At the same time, it doesn't automatically mean bad. Some art in general, and poetry in particular, you have to sit with a long time and come at it different ways. It can be so worth it. I read Paul Celan on and off for fifteen years and appreciated him up to a point, but always felt it was largely eluding me - he's considered very difficult. After fifteen years I spent some more serious time for him and eventually it all clicked. It took patience. And his work is life-altering. It was totally worth it. On the other hand, he's at least partly considered a surrealist poet and overall it's not an area I gravitate toward. But he is the best of the best...and there are many people, both scholars and ordinary readers, who agree with me.

    However, I firmly believe that the "a lot of people don't get it, or won't get it without putting in the effort, so that means it's rubbish" argument is...rubbish. By that reasoning, Justin Bieber must have made an enormous, significant contribution to world culture. Because, you know, a lot of people just get him right away, and he obviously speaks to a lot of people, so...
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  9. #49
    Senior Member Forever_Jung's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    No, I definitely agree that esoteric doesn't necessarily automatically mean good. Often it doesn't. At the same time, it doesn't automatically mean bad. Some art in general, and poetry in particular, you have to sit with a long time and come at it different ways. It can be so worth it. I read Paul Celan on and off for fifteen years and appreciated him up to a point, but always felt it was largely eluding me - he's considered very difficult. After fifteen years I spent some more serious time for him and eventually it all clicked. It took patience. And his work is life-altering. It was totally worth it. On the other hand, he's at least partly considered a surrealist poet and overall it's not an area I gravitate toward. But he is the best of the best...and there are many people, both scholars and ordinary readers, who agree with me.

    However, I firmly believe that the "a lot of people don't get it, or won't get it without putting in the effort, so that means it's rubbish" argument is...rubbish. By that reasoning, Justin Bieber must have made an enormous, significant contribution to world culture. Because, you know, a lot of people just get him right away, and he obviously speaks to a lot of people, so...
    I think we both agree that poetry shouldn't be too pandering or too obscure. I think now we're just debating as to where to draw the line in the sand.

  10. #50
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forever_Jung View Post
    I think we both agree that poetry shouldn't be too pandering or too obscure. I think now we're just debating as to where to draw the line in the sand.
    Well...I suppose it's extremely obvious that I get pissed when I think people are writing off 95% of poetry just because they don't get it. It's my pet art form. I love many many forms of literature, music and visual art, but poetry is something very special to me.
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