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  1. #11
    Senior Member LEGERdeMAIN's Avatar
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    There's a clear separation between "god" and "angels". God is the creator, angels are a part of creation. Humans, planets, bacteria, granite are all things god created. God was never created, he has always been. Some christian sects seem to believe in a trinity, which is not necessarily polytheist if it's taken to represent different aspects of god. It seems like the trinity just represents different facets of god's personality, except with Catholics who seem to believe in a three-part god figure with several minor deities, just like pagans.
    “Some people will tell you that slow is good – but I’m here to tell you that fast is better. I’ve always believed this, in spite of the trouble it’s caused me. Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba…”


  2. #12
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    It's important to demark between Christianity and Judiasm. Even though one stems from another, they have very different viewpoints. For instance in Judaism, angels are not so much a creation, but an extension of the will of God, including Satan. First hit on Google: Do Jews Believe in Satan? <--- The article even addresses the relationship between Satan and Monotheism.

    Here is a more theological point of view: Who is Satan?

    EDIT: If you can tell, I didn't actually read the articles before I posted them. I recommending going straight to the second one. Here's a biblical quote that the Rabbi used to make his point, and is germane to Eck's questions:

    "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil; I the Lord do all these things." (Isaiah 45:7)

  3. #13
    Junior Member Turquoise Bones's Avatar
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    Deism

  4. #14
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LEGERdeMAIN View Post
    There's a clear separation between "god" and "angels". God is the creator, angels are a part of creation. Humans, planets, bacteria, granite are all things god created. God was never created, he has always been. Some christian sects seem to believe in a trinity, which is not necessarily polytheist if it's taken to represent different aspects of god. It seems like the trinity just represents different facets of god's personality, except with Catholics who seem to believe in a three-part god figure with several minor deities, just like pagans.
    Actually, the Trinity is a paradoxical concept, just when they say that Jesus was fully human, fully divine. Same thing -- God is a community entity, separate facets that stand on their own and yet all part of the same gemstone. Or maybe you'd do better to think about like that drawing of the rabbit/duck or the old/young woman... one picture, but the full picture includes full other pictures within it.

    Anyway, like you said earlier, there is a very CLEAR delineation between the "creator" and the "created" in those faiths, so I'm not sure why some people are trying to blend them all together as if the distinction is irrelevant. Lucifer (well, according to the various mythos that have developed) was a fallen created being.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    Hi there,

    See when I look at ancient polytheistic pantheons you generally have some creator deity or at least an origin story (maelstrom etc). The pantheon then evolves into more gods or the other way around, some spirits are connected to world events and then unified into a pantheon.
    Now what monotheism does is that it often fails at really unifying the world's happenings and structure under one 'grand being'.
    Take Christianity, with which I am familiar as I was raised in a Christian family. There is a god that is in fact 3 different beings, angels, archangels, demons, a Devil and representatives for different concepts just like in polytheistic society (love, patron saints ...)

    It seems to me that religions have been following the path of unification in the same way science and most other things do. The rise of communication, travel, increasing knowledge about the universe, trade etc. stimulates the idea that the universe has a unique underlying logic but just as in science we are not quite there yet.


    discuss!
    Just because a religious doctrine attributes a divine nature to something else other than its god doesn't mean that its god ceases to be its only god. It only means there is a similarity between the god and other entities. Maybe if the god is already denoted as including everything else, like a pantheistic idea, while at the same time holding that another entity is completely separate, then you have a point. Or maybe if the god is defined as having complete control over everything, when some things act freely, then you have a point. Either way, I wonder if you are trying to bring a criticism to an idea by coupling it with other ideas, when it should be as clear as day that true monotheisms exist; and even if proclaimed followers of those monotheisms dabble and start to introduce other ideas into their personal narratives, it doesn't mean that nobody out there holds a monothesistic worldview.

  6. #16
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    Judaism has a heck of a lot invested philosophy-wise in the whole one god concept. There's no trinity, no Zororastrian devil, angels are not independent/individual beings.
    I thought there were twelve demigods or devils and twelve seraphin or angelic hosts. I could be mistaken, wasnt that what the kabbalah was about and I thought that this was the significance of knowing the name of a devil which had possessed someone because with its name it was possible to command it, it being one of the twelves likely candidates.

  7. #17
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    I dont think anyone should confuse complexity with polytheism.

    Its a little like saying how is there one head of state when they have subordinate senates or parliaments and then the various branches of administration or the so called deep state into the bargain.

  8. #18
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I thought there were twelve demigods or devils and twelve seraphin or angelic hosts. I could be mistaken, wasnt that what the kabbalah was about and I thought that this was the significance of knowing the name of a devil which had possessed someone because with its name it was possible to command it, it being one of the twelves likely candidates.
    This is the first I've heard about any of this.. it kind of sounds like the Jewish version of the myth of the Black Mass. There are always folk interpretations of any religion that tend towards the.. shadowy and practical. Like, for instance, Santeria.

  9. #19
    Senior Member Winds of Thor's Avatar
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    Religion is a projection of what some people would have God to be. People create it because they aren't innately powerful as God and therefore want to somehow make up for it. It makes them feel in control vs. being compliant.

    Monotheism? I think monotheism stands alone as truth.

    Virtually all peoples believe in God. If they could all agree on the one true one, there would be a lot fewer problems.
    "..And the eight and final rule: If this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight."
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