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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    It's the way the universe works, aggressive things are in your face, you notice them.. the other's not so much. There are plenty of religions that are committed to peace and don't believe in damnation. Well, and as far as Christians go, most of them won't stone, tar and feather you, that's really does count for something considering human history. In fact, most of them won't look down at you at all if you aren't Christian.

    EDIT: Okay, maybe not most, but a lot.
    Yeah, I have always pinned that "not looking down on you attitude" and tied it to the person, not the religion. Guess thats where my view of things come from.
    Im out, its been fun

  2. #12
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunnyDigestion View Post
    Are atheists as important as they think they are

    So I have a quizzical attitude toward those gung-ho atheists who are so vocal & militant.
    Agnosticism has been a commonplace in western intellectual life for a hundred years so it's peculiar that people could still find the idea revolutionary.
    Atheism and agnosticism are very different things.
    But THEN I think... in all probability the real villains of today have nothing to do with religion
    Ahmadinejad seems to disagree.

    the things to worry about are resource overconsumption, resource misallocation, technological authoritarianism, economic exploitation, etc...
    That's rather arbitrary.
    & the atheist intellectuals are just a sign that the rich people of the world have too much time on their hands & nothing better to do.
    Boredom is the main fuel of stupidity.
    What do you think? Is atheism today an important cultural battle?
    Can't tell. Some atheists just want people to recognize they are as peaceful as an average person, some just want the fanaticism to end, and some want everyone to recognize God doesn't exist. The first objective is practicable. The others aren't. Maybe after a couple of generations, but not in ours. The God delusion has very deep roots.
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    A man builds. A parasite asks 'Where is my share?'
    A man creates. A parasite says, 'What will the neighbors think?'
    A man invents. A parasite says, 'Watch out, or you might tread on the toes of God... '


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  3. #13
    Senior Member wildflower's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunnyDigestion View Post
    Agnosticism has been a commonplace in western intellectual life for a hundred years so it's peculiar that people could still find the idea revolutionary.
    i've heard that spiritually, and probably culturally too, what happens in europe will come to the US about 15-20 years later. that seems to be happening currently with the rise of the new atheists. it's in the global south and east where things are really taking off spiritually in christianity these days mostly with charismatics and pentecostals. as far as the church is concerned the center has shifted to the global south and east and is no longer in the west.

  4. #14
    Senior Member LEGERdeMAIN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunnyDigestion View Post
    That isn't meant sarcastically whatsoever.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loaded_question
    “Some people will tell you that slow is good – but I’m here to tell you that fast is better. I’ve always believed this, in spite of the trouble it’s caused me. Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba…”


  5. #15
    Senior Member FunnyDigestion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LEGERdeMAIN View Post
    Right, it is a loaded question but it's not sarcastic. It's sincere, though incompletely worded, referring to a certain type of atheist. & the rest of the post is completely explicit & unloaded & I want to know people's opinions about the issue. I don't mean to offend any atheists, i myself am an atheist.

    If I'd asked that question in a different context, I might have meant it sarcastically, but here I was actually wondering about it (i.e. are those atheists doing important work) which is why I put the disclaimers.
    RCUAI
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  6. #16
    Senior Member FunnyDigestion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    That's rather arbitrary.
    huh? Those are the biggest problems facing world civilization. Food shortages, energy crises, exploitation of poor populations, technological dominance. Those don't even compare to some culture-war bullshit about hidden masses of other-side zealots trying to oppress you.

    Ahmadinejad is a joke.
    RCUAI
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    "Man is free, but his freedom ceases when he has no faith in it."

  7. #17
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunnyDigestion View Post
    huh? Those are the biggest problems facing world civilization. Food shortages, energy crises, exploitation of poor populations, technological dominance. Those don't even compare to some culture-war bullshit about hidden masses of other-side zealots trying to oppress you.

    Ahmadinejad is a joke.
    I think he's saying that there are a lot more problems in the world than simply the four you mentioned; in the absence of any moral justification for the preeminent importance of "food shortages, energy crises, exploitation of poor populations, [and] technological dominance," vague and broad as those problems are themselves, it is arbitrary and ultimately irrelevant to mention them in the context of contemporary religio-political conflict (what's "technological dominance?") Also, I think it's a little naive to characterize this particular "culture war" as meaningless and based solely in some sort of sectarian paranoia. Have you stopped to understand what exactly is at stake in this "war?"
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  8. #18
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    I don't think atheism is necessarily a useful stance for all people, but I do think openness to new narratives is important. The issue I have with most religions is that they have a built in mechanism to discredit competing narratives via cognitive dissonance (Jews - we are the chosen people, Christians - we get to go to heaven and they don't, etc.). I do think it's important for our future as a species to eventually reject these systems, as I consider them tyrannical in nature.

  9. #19
    Senior Member FunnyDigestion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    I think he's saying that there are a lot more problems in the world than simply the four you mentioned; in the absence of any moral justification for the preeminent importance of "food shortages, energy crises, exploitation of poor populations, [and] technological dominance," vague and broad as those problems are themselves, it is arbitrary and ultimately irrelevant to mention them in the context of contemporary religio-political conflict (what's "technological dominance?") Also, I think it's a little naive to characterize this particular "culture war" as meaningless and based solely in some sort of sectarian paranoia. Have you stopped to understand what exactly is at stake in this "war?"
    There are more problems but personally I can't see any larger or more difficult ones. Everything in world civilization runs on oil, & that shit aint lasting for more than 50 more years at most unless someone finds an enormous hidden stash somewhere. Food is the principal human need so exploding populations & diminishing margin of return on agricultural productivity due to soil depletion from petrochemicals, pollution, etc. I think are the two biggest, because they're physical limits on the earth itself, the finite area to which all humanity is confined. Surely there are plenty of other problems but I think a lot, maybe most of those are problems principally in that they contribute to the main two with food & energy.

    To be honest I very rarely read political news including that involving global affairs anymore so I don't know much about the Islam-Christianity clash-of-civilizations thing now, but Ahmadenijad last I remembered was basically a figurehead to the Ayatollah. Maybe things are a lot different since 2009 or so when I last tried following that melodrama, but it always seemed to me like a lot of people blowing smoke.

    By technological dominance / authoritarianism I meant the combination of fascist-type government & technological power-- weapons, surveillance ubiquity, police-state type stuff. But I think that's a lot less likely than food- & energy-related disasters.
    RCUAI
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    "Man is free, but his freedom ceases when he has no faith in it."

  10. #20
    Senior Member FunnyDigestion's Avatar
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    But I don't mean to focus on long-term global issues necessarily; when I made the thread I was thinking about more localized, social-institution stuff like what @Orangey posted about the Jessica Ahlquist story. Those are the sorts of things I think about when I encounter really zealous atheists, & which make me reconsider whether their approach is so unnecessary.

    I live in the southern part of the US so I've been around both cultural extremes, radical Christian fundamentalist apocalyptics & radical atheist, radical gay-rights (by radical I mean vocal, I don't think any freedom issue is radical), transgender etc. It seems like the extremes usually feed off each other in that each latches onto the worst examples of the other side to fan the flames of their own. Modest, reasonable people who get ostracized by intolerant communities (like Jessica Ahlquist) are probably the best things that can happen for tolerance (just get them to a safe place after people start wanting to burn them at the stake).
    RCUAI
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    "Man is free, but his freedom ceases when he has no faith in it."

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