User Tag List

123 Last

Results 1 to 10 of 24

  1. #1

    Default French Government Angers Catholic Church in Allowing Debaptization

    Legal precedent versus religious/historical precedent

    NPR Story

    In France, an elderly man is fighting to make a formal break with the Catholic Church. He's taken the church to court over its refusal to let him nullify his baptism, in a case that could have far-reaching effects.
    As he didn't believe in God anymore, he thought it would be more honest to leave the church. So he wrote to his diocese and asked to be un-baptized.

    "They sent me a copy of my records, and in the margins next to my name, they wrote that I had chosen to leave the church," he says.

    That was in the year 2000. A decade later, LeBouvier wanted to go further. In between were the pedophile scandals and the pope preaching against condoms in AIDS-racked Africa, a position that LeBouvier calls "criminal." Again, he asked the church to strike him from baptismal records. When the priest told him it wasn't possible, he took the church to court.

    Last October, a judge in Normandy ruled in his favor. The diocese has since appealed, and the case is pending.

    "One can't be de-baptized," says Rev. Robert Kaslyn, dean of the School of Canon Law at the Catholic University of America.

    Kaslyn says baptism changes one permanently before the church and God.


    "One could refuse the grace offered by God, the grace offered by the sacrament, refuse to participate," he says, "but we would believe the individual has still been marked for God through the sacrament, and that individual at any point could return to the church."


    French law states that citizens have the right to leave organizations if they wish. Loup Desmond, who has followed the case for the French Catholic newspaper La Croix, says he thinks it could set a legal precedent and open the way for more demands for de-baptism.

    "If the justice confirms that the name Rene LeBouvier has to disappear from the books, if it is confirmed, it can be a kind of jurisprudence in France," he says. Up to now, observers say the de-baptism trend has been marginal, but it's growing.
    Two questions:
    Should the French government support this ruling in favor of the ex-Catholic?
    What does the Catholic Church or the French citizen have to lose/gain from this precedent?
    "The purpose of life is to be defeated by greater and greater things." - Rainer Maria Rilke

  2. #2
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    7,370

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by iwakar View Post
    Legal precedent versus religious/historical precedent

    NPR Story

    Two questions:
    Should the French government support this ruling in favor of the ex-Catholic?
    What does the Catholic Church or the French citizen have to lose/gain from this precedent?
    Yes.
    Power to the people.
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  3. #3
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    ESTJ
    Enneagram
    9 so/sx
    Posts
    21,628

    Default

    I dont understand this, he has left the church, that's fine, there is no such sacrament as debaptism, you can not be unbaptised and I would not expect that sacraments can or should be innovated in this way.

    The state should have no powers to compell the Church, WTF?! Dont you liberals believe in freedom of religion or conscience?!

    Not even Stalin or Hitler or Mussolini sought to try and compell capitulation like this from private religious institutions.

  4. #4

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I dont understand this, he has left the church, that's fine, there is no such sacrament as debaptism, you can not be unbaptised and I would not expect that sacraments can or should be innovated in this way.

    The state should have no powers to compell the Church, WTF?! Dont you liberals believe in freedom of religion or conscience?!

    Not even Stalin or Hitler or Mussolini sought to try and compell capitulation like this from private religious institutions.
    I'm not sure I understand why removing your name from a baptismal record would even be considered debaptization by the Catholic Church.
    "The purpose of life is to be defeated by greater and greater things." - Rainer Maria Rilke

  5. #5
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    ESTJ
    Enneagram
    9 so/sx
    Posts
    21,628

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by iwakar View Post
    I'm not sure I understand why removing your name from a baptismal record would even be considered debaptization by the Catholic Church.
    I've never heard of this debaptism at all, which makes me think that its a damned anti-church stunt, which will be seized upon as progressive by a lot of people who've not thought out whether or not its a good idea to give the state the power that's in question. A fantastic misdirection trick which is so, so easy for authoritarinans in the state when they've got the right scapegoat for the job.

  6. #6

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I've never heard of this debaptism at all, which makes me think that its a damned anti-church stunt, which will be seized upon as progressive by a lot of people who've not thought out whether or not its a good idea to give the state the power that's in question. A fantastic misdirection trick which is so, so easy for authoritarinans in the state when they've got the right scapegoat for the job.
    The ex-Catholic didn't call it a debaptism. The church did. I think they're the ones being melodramatic. They make it sound like he wants some unholy, voodoo ritual to rescind the holy light. He just wants his name removed from the church's religious roll call. Is that really an anti-church stunt? It's clerical and I'm not trying to be punny! It sounds more like an anti-nonbeliever stunt.
    "The purpose of life is to be defeated by greater and greater things." - Rainer Maria Rilke

  7. #7
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w6 sp/sx
    Posts
    5,932

    Default

    Should the French government support this ruling in favor of the ex-Catholic?
    Yes. To use a legal analogy, when you change your sex, you have the right to change your name not only in your ID, but in every public and private department.
    What does the Catholic Church or the French citizen have to lose/gain from this precedent?
    There's not much gain for anyone...I'm guessing it's a list no one bothers with unless the person wants a Catholic marriage. But the intolerance makes the Catholic Church look silly.
    Last edited by Rasofy; 01-29-2012 at 04:25 PM. Reason: made it a bit more gentle :)
    -----------------

    A man builds. A parasite asks 'Where is my share?'
    A man creates. A parasite says, 'What will the neighbors think?'
    A man invents. A parasite says, 'Watch out, or you might tread on the toes of God... '


    -----------------

  8. #8
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    738
    Socionics
    ILE None
    Posts
    7,265

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by iwakar View Post
    The ex-Catholic didn't call it a debaptism. The church did. I think they're the ones being melodramatic. They make it sound like he wants some unholy, voodoo ritual to rescind the holy light. He just wants his name removed from the church's religious roll call. Is that really an anti-church stunt? It's clerical and I'm not trying to be punny! It sounds more like an anti-nonbeliever stunt.
    I actually considered taking myself out their damn ledgers. Of course it would be silly to ask to undo something that i believe has no more actual effect than taking a quick bath. maybe I could skip washing my hair for a day or something, should do the trick.
    Also 'authorising it' is silly. It's something that according to their own belief is a major and meaningful act done without the child's agreement. In today's society they shouldn't even authorize the baptism in the first place. You need to be 13 to play most non disneyish video games yet anybody can do wierd shit to a child they believe will bind him or her literally forever. Can we really condemn such a willingful denial of one's ability for self determination. Intent counts, however silly the act the intent is to bind an unwilling participant beyond even death and then is generally followed up by an institutional brain washing leading to a belief system that is largely incoherent with observed reality to the point of clearly presenting the clinical symptoms of a delusion.
    The church and its representatives should be prosecuted, not kindly asked how shocked they feel about people asking to be taken off their hit list.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  9. #9
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    ESTJ
    Enneagram
    9 so/sx
    Posts
    21,628

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by iwakar View Post
    The ex-Catholic didn't call it a debaptism. The church did. I think they're the ones being melodramatic. They make it sound like he wants some unholy, voodoo ritual to rescind the holy light. He just wants his name removed from the church's religious roll call. Is that really an anti-church stunt? It's clerical and I'm not trying to be punny! It sounds more like an anti-nonbeliever stunt.
    I do think it sounds like an anti-church stunt, I think its being deliberately spun to make it appear like someone is being victimised and the church is an oppressive ogre. Now what agenda could that possibly fit?

  10. #10

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I do think it sounds like an anti-church stunt, I think its being deliberately spun to make it appear like someone is being victimised and the church is an oppressive ogre. Now what agenda could that possibly fit?
    Stop spinning for a moment and consider: is requesting a clerical edit in a baptismal book of records a ploy for victimhood? He has asked for his name to be struck from the record. That's it. Why on earth would a religious institution insist on clerically (not generally) maintaning a man within their ranks that vehemently opposes being there? This is bewildering. Would you want his name in your church, on your roster if he publicly denounces you all? I cannot make sense of this.
    "The purpose of life is to be defeated by greater and greater things." - Rainer Maria Rilke

Similar Threads

  1. Twenty-First Century: Will the Catholic Church finally end?
    By Kephalos in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 37
    Last Post: 03-25-2012, 11:41 PM
  2. The Prime Minister of Ireland and the Roman Catholic Church
    By Mole in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 07-25-2011, 10:36 PM
  3. French Cities Worth Living In
    By simulatedworld in forum The Bonfire
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: 06-07-2009, 03:33 PM
  4. Government involvement in economy
    By Mycroft in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: 01-07-2009, 11:17 AM
  5. Power and Pedophilia in the Catholic Church
    By Mole in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 79
    Last Post: 07-01-2008, 07:06 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO