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  1. #11
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    I actually considered taking myself out their damn ledgers. Of course it would be silly to ask to undo something that i believe has no more actual effect than taking a quick bath. maybe I could skip washing my hair for a day or something, should do the trick.
    Also 'authorising it' is silly. It's something that according to their own belief is a major and meaningful act done without the child's agreement. In today's society they shouldn't even authorize the baptism in the first place. You need to be 13 to play most non disneyish video games yet anybody can do wierd shit to a child they believe will bind him or her literally forever. Can we really condemn such a willingful denial of one's ability for self determination. Intent counts, however silly the act the intent is to bind an unwilling participant beyond even death and then is generally followed up by an institutional brain washing leading to a belief system that is largely incoherent with observed reality to the point of clearly presenting the clinical symptoms of a delusion.
    The church and its representatives should be prosecuted, not kindly asked how shocked they feel about people asking to be taken off their hit list.
    I find that language of "binding" and "hit lists" highly emotively charged and ill served to proper objective discussion of what is taking place here.

    If it is a simple matter of removal of a name from parish lists then that could and should be considered for all it is, perhaps there are other issues at stake here, are the parish lists used to determine the amount of parishioners, in which case this move could have consequences for financial aid either from the state or Rome. Which makes greater sense in an age of public austerity and when the RCC has been closing churches and merging parishes or masses.

    Although if this person were to insist that they wish to have themselves removed and disassociated that's fine, I even dont mind if they are choosing to remove themselves symbolically from the congregation, however, it would be a new development in secular hostility towards the church if individuals shunning the church in adulthood were so driven in doing so that they are unhappy with the historical "lapsed catholic" tag. Not that I would not believe that that would happen, I see lots of threads attacking religion and religious belief, let alone institutional or organised religious tradition, on this forum alone. It is probably not too mistaken to consider that as representative.

    There is no element of abuse or usurping of an individuals right or freedom of conscience within sacramentalism, including baptism, there is no binding, if you dont believe in the ritual it should be of no consequence to you, if you do then it is in fact a form of exorcism and forgiveness of sins and positively in the interests of the child's welfare.

    What I suspect IS the problem is that atheists and secularists and those who resent their personal histories and family traditions and have betrayed or abandoned them resent the symbolic induction into a religious community and the continuity and renewal it could provide to the very things they dislike. It is cloaked in all sorts of high minded language about respecting choice and independent formation of opinions but in reality what is desired is the non-religious and secular secondary socialisation, in home, school and community which it is hoped will translate into choosing secular and anti-religious opinions in later life.

  2. #12
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iwakar View Post
    Stop spinning for a moment and consider: is requesting a clerical edit in a baptismal book of records a ploy for victimhood? He has asked for his name to be struck from the record. That's it. Why on earth would a religious institution insist on clerically (not generally) maintaning a man within their ranks that vehemently opposes being there? This is bewildering. Would you want his name in your church, on your roster if he publicly denounces you all? I cannot make sense of this.
    I'm not spinning.

    What is being proposed here, right, and, as I've said already, as a PROGRESSIVE move is, first, the state compelling a private religious institution into compliance and, second, to amend their records inorder to reflect historical revisionism of the first order, practiced by Stalin, satirised and novelised as among the worst possible crimes by Orwell in 1984 and now considered proper order and a not unreasonable request by secularists hostile to anything with the trappings of religious conscience.

    Way to go guys. Way to go. Right on.

  3. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    What is being proposed here is the state compelling a private religious institution into compliance.
    I edited your post so it made sense to me. So you believe that religious institutions are not subject to the laws of the nation they reside in?
    "The purpose of life is to be defeated by greater and greater things." - Rainer Maria Rilke

  4. #14
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I find that language of "binding" and "hit lists" highly emotively charged and ill served to proper objective discussion of what is taking place here.

    If it is a simple matter of removal of a name from parish lists then that could and should be considered for all it is, perhaps there are other issues at stake here, are the parish lists used to determine the amount of parishioners, in which case this move could have consequences for financial aid either from the state or Rome. Which makes greater sense in an age of public austerity and when the RCC has been closing churches and merging parishes or masses.

    Although if this person were to insist that they wish to have themselves removed and disassociated that's fine, I even dont mind if they are choosing to remove themselves symbolically from the congregation, however, it would be a new development in secular hostility towards the church if individuals shunning the church in adulthood were so driven in doing so that they are unhappy with the historical "lapsed catholic" tag. Not that I would not believe that that would happen, I see lots of threads attacking religion and religious belief, let alone institutional or organised religious tradition, on this forum alone. It is probably not too mistaken to consider that as representative.

    There is no element of abuse or usurping of an individuals right or freedom of conscience within sacramentalism, including baptism, there is no binding, if you dont believe in the ritual it should be of no consequence to you, if you do then it is in fact a form of exorcism and forgiveness of sins and positively in the interests of the child's welfare.

    What I suspect IS the problem is that atheists and secularists and those who resent their personal histories and family traditions and have betrayed or abandoned them resent the symbolic induction into a religious community and the continuity and renewal it could provide to the very things they dislike. It is cloaked in all sorts of high minded language about respecting choice and independent formation of opinions but in reality what is desired is the non-religious and secular secondary socialisation, in home, school and community which it is hoped will translate into choosing secular and anti-religious opinions in later life.
    I meant binding in a quasi legal term. It is technically exactly that. I mean it is supposed to be some covenant with a divinity that changes your very nature. I would call that binding.
    No time to answer the rest of the post now, will try to make up for it later
    Hit list was actually more of an experiment in charged utterances.
    All I am saying is that religions constantly get a free pass for emotional manipulation, child indoctrination, even siphoning public funds. Not the mention the countless cases of willing harboring of child rapists motivated by a stronger desire to avoid losing face than to protect the victims. It's only understandable that some individuals don't want to be associated with them in any way.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

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  5. #15
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I find that language of "binding" and "hit lists" highly emotively charged and ill served to proper objective discussion of what is taking place here.

    If it is a simple matter of removal of a name from parish lists then that could and should be considered for all it is, perhaps there are other issues at stake here, are the parish lists used to determine the amount of parishioners, in which case this move could have consequences for financial aid either from the state or Rome. Which makes greater sense in an age of public austerity and when the RCC has been closing churches and merging parishes or masses.

    Although if this person were to insist that they wish to have themselves removed and disassociated that's fine, I even dont mind if they are choosing to remove themselves symbolically from the congregation, however, it would be a new development in secular hostility towards the church if individuals shunning the church in adulthood were so driven in doing so that they are unhappy with the historical "lapsed catholic" tag. Not that I would not believe that that would happen, I see lots of threads attacking religion and religious belief, let alone institutional or organised religious tradition, on this forum alone. It is probably not too mistaken to consider that as representative.

    There is no element of abuse or usurping of an individuals right or freedom of conscience within sacramentalism, including baptism, there is no binding, if you dont believe in the ritual it should be of no consequence to you, if you do then it is in fact a form of exorcism and forgiveness of sins and positively in the interests of the child's welfare.

    What I suspect IS the problem is that atheists and secularists and those who resent their personal histories and family traditions and have betrayed or abandoned them resent the symbolic induction into a religious community and the continuity and renewal it could provide to the very things they dislike. It is cloaked in all sorts of high minded language about respecting choice and independent formation of opinions but in reality what is desired is the non-religious and secular secondary socialisation, in home, school and community which it is hoped will translate into choosing secular and anti-religious opinions in later life.
    Would you like to be counted as a member of an organization you find yourself in strong ethical disagreement with?
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  6. #16

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    I believe the Church should comply with the ex-Catholic's wishes, and if no mechanism is in place to formally resign membership, one should be created. However, the most absurd and foolish party in this story is clearly the French court. Since when is government the authority on spiritual matters? The decision is akin to a court deciding that keeping kosher isn't part of Judaism or that only eight of the ten commandments really count. This guy, though his frustration is understandable, appealed to the wrong authority. This decision makes no more sense than a church demanding a murderer go free from prison because he went to confession and was absolved.
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  7. #17
    violaine
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    This is my little breadcrumb thought trail: I'm not in favor of rights being stomped, regardless of whether or not I agree with the stance. But I think governments do have some form of jurisdiction in church matters at certain times when there is conflict between church and country, e.g. in matters that require criminal prosecution instead of just confession/absolution. (Though this is not that). A person has the right to withdraw their support from any organization. If this person sees himself as something outside of the church, his only recourse would be through the court of the land, the only similarly empowered entity.

    It didn't have to come to this, the church should respect a person's wishes in this respect. Especially as it seems a matter of conscience. (And most especially if this man was baptized as an infant, before he could make his own decisions). It's not the first time someone has wanted to disentangle themselves and makes me wonder how many unwilling enrollees are on the books. The church has a lot to lose but inflating numbers artificially surely doesn't help.

    A person has the right to decide what is best for themselves, it's not for the church to overrule a person in that "parental" way that some religious cultures adhere to. I wonder what kind of precedent this may set, and I know the French gov keep close tabs on the varying religions, but I don't foresee religious persecution and this situation isn't right.
    Last edited by violaine; 01-31-2012 at 01:39 AM.

  8. #18
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    Being de-baptised and leaving the church are two different things. He's already left the church and even Catholic records cite this. What he wants is symbolic, purely religious, and something the state has no power over.

    Having said that, I'm not a fan of the Catholic church so any disillusioned non-practicing Catholics can stick it to 'em, I'm all for.

    :edit:

    Oh wait, you asked two questions.

    1) The Catholic Church has a lot to lose. It's not just about numbers it's about any perceived slight to their ultimate authority. I've never even heard of 'de-baptism'. I think it's kinda ridiculous that it's an "official thing" but if you're thoroughly disgusted with the Catholic Church I understand why you'd want to symbolically F U them.

    2) I guess any citizen who can formally declare themselves 'de-baptized' has gained a significant symbolic legal right. I keep on saying 'symbolic' because to the individual that's what it is. Now, if we were talking about a real loony organization like Scientology, then I would say oh hell yes, people need to be legally separated and protected from those people. Who could be like telemarketers from hell. Who also have access to your bank information.
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  9. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    Being de-baptised and leaving the church are two different things. He's already left the church and even Catholic records cite this.
    Incorrect. They merely provided him a COPY of his records. They removed him from nothing. There is also no clarity on whether they even wrote the note in the margins on just the copy or the original.
    "The purpose of life is to be defeated by greater and greater things." - Rainer Maria Rilke

  10. #20
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    If he had joined the Boyscouts or the Red Cross or the Communist Party as a youngster and now wanted to be struck from their member list, this would be a non-issue.

    It just so happens the organisation from whose member list he wants to erased does not think that is possible and has no corresponding clerical procedure installed. They should, unless they consider themselves to be above and beyond secular law (which they seem to do). That is the whole point. From inside a religious worldview his request is ludicrous, but only IF you accept the premises used inside the church. From outside a religious worldview his request is the most normal thing in the world. I don't see it as a publicity stunt against the church (nor as others have suggested as a stunt BY the church to demonstrate how far those evil apostates have gone by spreading the misinformation that he wanted to be "debaptised") but simply as a conflict between two different interpretations of reality that come down to what has priority - divine law (and to accept that you have to be religious) or secular law.

    This reminds me of those people who say Salman Rushdie is an idiot for thinking he is no longer a muslim and the laws of islam don't apply to him since he is an apostate. They say once a muslim always a muslim...so he shouldn't be surprised about the fatwa.
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