Original sin?

[Salomé]

Maybe, but I doubt Salome has a logically consistent reason for NOT killing people who disagree. Without God, being against murder only amounts to a preference, but at least you don't have to worry about being oppressed... Until you encounter someone with a different preference and an inclination to kill you.

My logically consistent reason is that I'm not pathologically insane (...all the time).

 

[entropie]

Maybe, but I doubt Salome has a logically consistent reason for NOT killing people who disagree. Without God, being against murder only amounts to a preference, but at least you don't have to worry about being oppressed... Until you encounter someone with a different preference and an inclination to kill you.

well, I am not from the Wild West

My people tended to kill big scale in the name of God

 

[Beorn]

well, I am not from the Wild West

You're not from the wild wild west because you are from a people that centuries ago recognized the importance of law. And, not law as mere raw power, but a higher law of God that bound all people. You should be thankful that you are the recipient of the residual effects of a historically Christian nation.

My people tended to kill big scale in the name of God

That is very sad. it's always sad when people take the law of God and distort it to their own ends.

 

[Salomé]

I think you'll find it's because he's from Germany.

(The simplest explanation is usually the best)

 

[entropie]

God, Hitler, call it as you like. I'll go and drink my Scotch now. Salomé

 

[kyuuei]

It's important to note that while oppression does occur often within the church (and pretty much everywhere else in society) technically many Christians don't believe submission to necessarily mean unequal. This is made most obvious in the trinity where Jesus submits to the father, but is equal to him.

I'd argue that although technically this is true, the amount of people who presume that submission is a sign of a lack of equality far exceeds anyone who presumes submissive qualities to be on par with less-submissive ones. The two are no longer defined as being capable of linking together..

When you ask people how they would describe Jesus, I doubt you'll find many to reply with "submissive" with a tone of inspiration, although that may very well be one of his greatest qualities.

 

[Beorn]

God, Hitler, call it as you like. I'll go and drink my Scotch now. Salomé

The ironic thing is that the only reason that the Nuremberg trials were able to find any nazi guilty was by an appeal to natural law. All of the horrible things hitler's men did were perfectly legal. The Germans were very procedurally alert and made sure that every mass killing was by the book. They could only be held accountable if they were disobeying a law higher than the German state.

 

[Beorn]

My logically consistent reason is that I'm not pathologically insane (...all the time).

"The madman is not the man who has lost his reason. The madman is the man who has lost everything except his reason."
G. K. Chesterton

 

[Beorn]

When you ask people how they would describe Jesus, I doubt you'll find many to reply with "submissive" with a tone of inspiration, although that may very well be one of his greatest qualities.

Probably true. Pretty remarkable given that the whole dying on the cross thing is a pretty big deal and it was really against his own desires.

 

[entropie]

The ironic thing is that the only reason that the Nuremberg trials were able to find any nazi guilty was by an appeal to natural law. All of the horrible things hitler's men did were perfectly legal. The Germans were very procedurally alert and made sure that every mass killing was by the book. They could only be held accountable if they were disobeying a law higher than the German state.

Ok but then lets assume for a moment that mankind was actually able to learn from its mistakes. And it would from the nazi regime and the things that happened at the Nürnberg trials derive ethics and a morale that is congruent with the ones of religion. Why do I need to believe in God then ?

 

[Salomé]

I'd argue that although technically this is true, the amount of people who presume that submission is a sign of a lack of equality far exceeds anyone who presumes submissive qualities to be on par with less-submissive ones. The two are no longer defined as being capable of linking together..

When you ask people how they would describe Jesus, I doubt you'll find many to reply with "submissive" with a tone of inspiration, although that may very well be one of his greatest qualities.

Jesus preached submission to God, that did not make him submissive. In fact, he was a highly subversive Jew.
The Trinity is an invention of the Catholic church, entirely inconsistent with early Christian doctrine. Jesus did not see himself as equal to God. If he had, much of his teaching would have been utterly nonsensical. Whereas, in fact, much of it was common sense.

"The madman is not the man who has lost his reason. The madman is the man who has lost everything except his reason."
G. K. Chesterton

There's another dude who thought he could just redefine terms to suit himself. I figured you'd like him.

 

[Beorn]

Ok but then lets assume for a moment that mankind was actually able to learn from its mistakes.

Without a higher law what's your basis for saying it was a mistake in the first place? In a materialist atheistic world there are no mistakes only what is. Mistakes are just notions produced by chemical reactions in the brains of homosapiens.

And it would from the nazi regime and the things that happened at the Nürnberg trials derive ethics and a morale that is congruent with the ones of religion. Why do I need to believe in God then ?

Why do I believe I need a foundation for my house when the bedroom doors open and close just fine?

 

[entropie]

Why do I believe I need a foundation for my house when the bedroom doors open and close just fine?

I didnt want to say that in the sense of "well if things do work, its not important why they do". So I didnt meant to sound ignorant. I meant, if I was to live my life according to christian values, which I do (at least to the ones of Protestants), why do I then need to believe in God or need to out myself as a religious person to be accepted as a moralistic and ethical person. Cant I just be that person without believing into a higher physical being ?

 

[Beorn]

I didnt want to say that in the sense of "well if things do work, its not important why they do". So I didnt meant to sound ignorant. I meant, if I was to live my life according to christian values, which I do (at least to the ones of Protestants), why do I then need to believe in God or need to out myself as a religious person to be accepted as a moralistic and ethical person. Cant I just be that person without believing into a higher physical being ?

Sure, as long as you don't judge other people... including hitler. But, I don't think that's feasably possible so you're bound to be logically inconsistent. The basis of your adherence to these ethics is that they "work" for you. Which is fine, but without believing in God the minute you say someone shouldn't do this or that you're presuming you know what works best for them. But, all you know is yourself and you have no access to a moral authority higher than yourself to be able to righteously judge the acts of the other person. Without God any judgement of another person is purely based on your desire to exert your will and your personal preferences onto the other person.

 

[iwakar]

...but without believing in God the minute you say someone shouldn't do this or that you're presuming you know what works best for them. But, all you know is yourself and you have no access to a moral authority higher than yourself to be able to righteously judge the acts of the other person.

That is the only moral authority any of us has access to.

With or Without God any judgement in action of another person is purely based on your desire to exert your will and your personal preferences onto the other person.

Fixed.

 

[Salomé]

[MENTION=15136]EvidenceOfRedemption[/MENTION] also tried to explain it. Grace is one of this things that without the Holy Spirit, you won't understand it. It's a spiritual phenomenon.

Once you have the Holy Spirit the Bible sort of comes alive and lights up. It all suddenly makes sense. There are no more contradictions, and no more confusion. That is my experience..

That reads like the definition of psychosis.

 

[entropie]

Sure, as long as you don't judge other people... including hitler. But, I don't think that's feasably possible so you're bound to be logically inconsistent. The basis of your adherence to these ethics is that they "work" for you. Which is fine, but without believing in God the minute you say someone shouldn't do this or that you're presuming you know what works best for them. But, all you know is yourself and you have no access to a moral authority higher than yourself to be able to righteously judge the acts of the other person. Without God any judgement of another person is purely based on your desire to exert your will and your personal preferences onto the other person.

The basis of adherence of myself is hate against myself. I have choosen that I judge Hitler and I will choose that until you make me die

 

[EvidenceOfRedemption]

That reads like the definition of psychosis.

Yes.

"For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." (1 Corinthians 1:18)

 

[iwakar]

Once you have the Holy Spirit, the Bible sort of comes alive and lights up. It all suddenly makes sense. There are no more contradictions, and no more confusions. That is my experience..

I think the 'it just feels right' corner is your well-worn niche. I experience this sensation too, but I never just settle for it without asking myself why. If we all based our convictions on what just felt good, we'd all be Caligula reborn.

 

[Salomé]

You Christian types need to get yourselves some better representation.