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Thread: Original sin?

  1. #31
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    So have I, the definition which I associate with the RCC church is that everyone was damned by Adam's action, so everyone is born sinful and require baptism, most importantly, but other prescriptions for living, including sacraments, in order to have eternal life, rather than eternal damnation to hell. I dont like this idea because it kind of messes with my understanding of Jesus as an incarnation of God, how could he be born into a human vessel if all human vessels are damned? I mean human vessel as in human body, not trying to spark a debate about the immaculate conception or anything.
    Well, I'm not sure how you can avoid triggering that discussion, just by bringing up the point... since the "out" is that Mary was human but Jesus was supposedly the divine seed of God rather than Joseph (i.e., he was born of both human and the divine... so he wasn't really "just human." )

    But I'm thinking this is why some Catholics REALLY then try to cover all the bases and insist that Mary was sinless as well.
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  2. #32
    Senior Member EvidenceOfRedemption's Avatar
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    The way I understand is this. Man believe we can become God, we believe a lie, when God said eat that apple and you will die. Since, man did and still does die, as God doesn't lie. To bring myself back to connection with God, God had to reverse this lie, a man who actually was God had to come and die the death I deserve for my pride. But now He lives, because unlike me and you He actually is God, and God is eternal life, death (being, by definition, being apart from Him, who is eternal life) has no part in Him.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    No, I dont think you should teach anyone that, I also dont think its the actual teachings of Jesus either. Which lets be honest superseded or at least contextualised all the rest.
    I like that answer
    Im out, its been fun

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    No, I dont think you should teach anyone that, I also dont think its the actual teachings of Jesus either. Which lets be honest superseded or at least contextualised all the rest.
    But it is truth [and all scripture in the Bible is inspired by God].

    Quote Originally Posted by _Poki_ View Post
    Thats kinda scary you see that as truth.

    They are saying 2 different things. It is basically saying nothing anyone ever does is "good" ...period. They then attempt to "correct" it by saying..and does not sin...which to me says...well they may do good, but not everything they do is good

    Those are actually the reasons I dont follow religion or the bible. Its not refreshing to be looked down upon as if we "NEVER" do good. Should I really teach my child that? Your a failure in life...deal with it...but I still love you.

    edit: I prefer the "good job, give me five" approach. But to each there own I also tell him when he screwed up and its something to work on.
    Our faith produces good fruit because we have the Holy Spirit in us. Faithless men can brag all they want about the good things they do, but to God it's in vain without Jesus. The good of a faithless man will be judged as fruitless and those men as fools. On the surface it might look good to you, but it's not good to God (no matter how well intended).

    This might also help clarify where I'm going with this...

    Quote Originally Posted by Re: The Pure Gospel of Christ
    I hope this helps...

    Old Testament = Old Covenant = The Law = 10 Commandments = Condemnation = Judgement
    New Testament = New Covenant = No Law = Holy Spirit = Grace = No Condemnation = No Judgement

    We are not bound to the letter of the Law (10 commandments), not that the Law has any flaws, or is not good and perfect, but we are NOT good and perfect, and our Salvation comes by FAITH in Christ, and NOT our own adherence to the letter of the Law, because according to the Law, "everyone" is already condemned.

    We are saved by FAITH, and our faith produces fruit, our works represent our faith, but none can be saved without Jesus Christ, and none can ever earn or deserve Salvation because we have ALL fallen short of the Glory of God, and we have ALL broken God's Law, for when you break ONE part of the Law, you break the WHOLE Law.

    Once we broke it, the penalty for breaking the Holy Law of God is death, and we who have faith in Christ have already died to the Law in Christ when He died for our sins on the cross. He took our penalty of execution upon Himself. Now we are bought by God as servants to righteousness/holiness, not held to account for our sins because we have been PARDONED by God through our faith in His Son, our Savior, the Redeemer of the World.

    So we live in a state of GRACE to the best of our ability (through the power of the Holy Spirit), remembering the sacrifice God made for us, while relying on him the entire time, to complete the work He started in us, according to His will and for His Glory, knowing that it is only by his sacrifice for us that we are saved.

  5. #35
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    Original Sin and Original Blessing

    The sacrificial form of child rearing produces the paranoid personality, while the abusive form of child rearing produces the guilty personality.

    And the guilty personality expresses itself in the doctrine of Original Sin.

    Fortunately we have improved on the sacrificial and abusive forms of child rearing with the authoritarian form of child rearing which produces the controlling personality.

    And even better, we have improved on the authoritarian form of child rearing with the helping form of child rearing which produces the empathic and creative personality.

    So Original Sin is a remnant of the abusive form of child rearing, where the child is to blame from the very beginning at birth, and so develops a guilty personality.

    So we might say the abusive form of child rearing is the original sin, and the helping form of chlld rearing is the original blessing.

    We can find the History of Childhood by clicking on - http://www.psychohistory.com/htm/p1x22.htm
    Last edited by Mole; 01-31-2012 at 07:07 PM.

  6. #36
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd Girl View Post
    But it is truth [and all scripture in the Bible is inspired by God].
    Well the original "scripture" or torah was actually the Jewish people, then Jesus expanded that to include all people during his ministry, I do believe that scripture is truth but its not stand alone truth, the parable of the vineyard owner explains this well, the vineyard owner sends messengers, finally his son, his message is ignored or misunderstand and they even kill the son.

    If it were truth and easily understandable as such then Jesus would not have had to spend as much time teaching and reframing existing teachings, both he and his followers were at pains to describe how much of his life and ministry was about being a consistent and traditional jew, not until Paul when he started a serious break with traditions like circumcision did that change.

  7. #37
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    The simplest way to translate the doctrine of sin to the nonreligious is that we all are imperfect (everyone will agree to that), and at the same time, have a tendency to act like we're not (self-righteousness).

    While man's acknowledgement of imperfection shows that he has a sense of an ideal state we are not living up to, the ultimate measure of perfection was God's Law.
    When held up to this standard, a lot of guilt was produced (which is what people hate the most about religion), and hence, all the condemnation.

    But Christ died to pay the penalty, and thus end the Law's hold over us. Hence, He taught about a "soon" event that would mark the end of the covenant of Law. The Church did not recognize this event (the destruction of the Temple system) for what it was, and kept waiting for this "soon" event for 1900+ years and counting. Hence, they still teach condemnation byy Law, and have often profitted off of this.
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    Senior Member Snoopy22's Avatar
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    Through Adams actions the character of man (humanity was set), It’s also unique (to me) that sin did not enter the world until Adam committed sin, although Eve had already eaten of the apple.

  9. #39
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    The simplest way to translate the doctrine of sin to the nonreligious is that we all are imperfect (everyone will agree to that), and at the same time, have a tendency to act like we're not (self-righteousness).

    While man's acknowledgement of imperfection shows that he has a sense of an ideal state we are not living up to, the ultimate measure of perfection was God's Law.
    When held up to this standard, a lot of guilt was produced (which is what people hate the most about religion), and hence, all the condemnation.
    So far, so good.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    But Christ died to pay the penalty, and thus end the Law's hold over us. Hence, He taught about a "soon" event that would mark the end of the covenant of Law. The Church did not recognize this event (the destruction of the Temple system) for what it was, and kept waiting for this "soon" event for 1900+ years and counting. Hence, they still teach condemnation byy Law, and have often profitted off of this.
    Now you lost me. This sounds so artificial and contrived. Why should it be so? How would it even work? Law will never lose its hold on us, but our understanding of that law changes, perhaps as humanity grows as a species. We had one understanding of the law from the OT, which Jesus revised in the NT. In a broader sense, it points to something like the Bahai idea of progressive revelation, that to every age and culture, God sends a messenger to repeat or re-present his truth in a way they can understand.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Now you lost me. This sounds so artificial and contrived. Why should it be so? How would it even work?
    What Eric B stated is truth. The pure gospel of Jesus does not mix Law with Grace. You get into contradiction and confusion when you try to mix Old Testament Law (and condemnation) with New Testament Grace. As @Eric B said, churches profit from mixing the two; for example, if you don't go to church on Sunday, you're breaking Old Testament Law.

    The Old Testament deals with man according to the Law where the animal sacrifice shed blood was a temporary provision for forgiveness of sin. The New Testament deals with man according to God's grace through the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross.

    The shed blood sacrifice of Jesus IS the fulfillment of the old covenant Law, and IS the permanent provision for sin. For we who have faith in Christ have already died to the Law in Christ when He died for our sins on the cross. He took our penalty of execution upon Himself. We are bought by God as servants to righteousness, not held to account for our sins because we have been pardoned by God through our faith in Jesus.

    Law will never lose its hold on us,
    It's your choice. I'm under grace.

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