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Thread: Original sin?

  1. #21
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    If original sin is the idea that we are all born already sinful, it is a foolish, hurtful, counterproductive idea. At most I would agree we are born with the capacity to sin, to make mistakes. In short, we are not perfect. God in this sense does not save us from sin or original sin. Instead he provides a moral compass to help us know right from wrong and thereby avoid (but not eliminate) mistakes, and to confront the mistakes we do make.

    I don't see why belief in original sin is required to be a Christian. I thought a Christian just had to believe in the divinity of Christ, and follow his teachings.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  2. #22
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    I do sometimes and it's very disturbing.

  3. #23
    Senior Member tinker683's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    When I made my attempt to conform, it was with Missouri Synod Lutherans... that kind of stuff doesn't fly there. Then I tried to prod the SO to do the ELCA thing after I got allergic to MS services, that didn't fly either.
    The Missouri Synod folks are an....interesting bunch. My old church, an ELCA church, literally split in half when the ELCA released it's position on allowing gay's to serve as ministers some time ago. Those that left (because they felt it was sinful) went to more conservative branches.

    I would have been quiet snug back in my Fundy hey-day

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    If original sin is the idea that we are all born already sinful, it is a foolish, hurtful, counterproductive idea. At most I would agree we are born with the capacity to sin, to make mistakes. In short, we are not perfect. God in this sense does not save us from sin or original sin. Instead he provides a moral compass to help us know right from wrong and thereby avoid (but not eliminate) mistakes, and to confront the mistakes we do make.

    I don't see why belief in original sin is required to be a Christian. I thought a Christian just had to believe in the divinity of Christ, and follow his teachings.
    Ah, but what does it mean to be a Christian these days? The word is so nebulous I'm afraid it's going to lose it's meaning eventually.

    And apparently you don't even though a lot of denominations comment or believe in it. I know for a fact the Catholic Church and the Lutheran Church does, I do not know what the other various denominations think or do..

    Roman Catholic Catechism: http://www.scborromeo.org/mobileccc/p1s2c1p7.htm#III

    Lutheran Book of Concord: http://bookofconcord.org/sd-originalsin.php
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  4. #24
    small potatoes NotOfTwo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Does anyone believe in or think about the idea of original sin? I've not heard it talked about much at all lately, although I did hear a presenter on a radio show lately talk about losing his roman catholic faith and how he embraced humanism, he didnt think he was sure if he could call it humanism but he said that he did think that the idea of original sin was so absurd as to make him question the whole subject of faith and belief.

    I dont know much about the idea in its origin, it was decided by the church from scripture? It is an RC thing? I know it was associated with the importance of baptism and sacramentalism and the reformation sought to break that, although was it reinvented by the schismatic and protestant christians with theories of predestination and election?

    I remember seeing Robert Crumb (is it Robert or Richard, cant recall) cartoons about sin, in the form of a milk bottle which turns black and is turned white again by confessions, it was simplistic but I think it was biographical and a proper depiction of his understanding at the time.
    Out of curiosity, how are you defining original sin? I have heard differences of opinion as to what it is.
    "It's never enough." The Cure

  5. #25
    Senior Member EvidenceOfRedemption's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    I suppose you could do everything a Christian does and not believe this, I'm not sure. But, the whole expression of Christianity is very strongly rooted in original sin. The wretchedness of the sinner and the helpless need of redemption. The urgency of the need for those to be rescued from their flawed selves before they are lost to Hell. The taught inclination to deny one's own flawed and sinful instincts.
    I disagree. See:

    23 Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence. (Colossians 2:23)

    In fact, it is this tendency to try and manage one's own sin that is a legalistic loophole (and one which has no substance or real wisdom to it) where people can continue in it. It is still proud and disobedient to revel in the destitution of the sinner so much a person does not continue on to the sinner's salvation. This can lead you to be disqualified, because you'd stay stuck in a self-centered state... any state centered on self is still rooted in sin, it only seems humble but it isn't. How deceiving it is to focus on the sinner's destitution without recognizing the saving grace of Jesus.

    18 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility ... disqualify you. (Colossians 2:18)

    Sin can only be handled in one way: Jesus' death on the cross. To know, with belief as strong as factual proof, that Jesus died once and for all for those who sin (that means you and me). This is how sin is taken care of, it's killed out right. When we try to deny our own sin nature, whether overtly (false humility) or covertly, we're only entertaining a state of denial which I'm sure many could tell you is completely ineffective.

    If you think about it, it's a silly thing to believe. It's funny actually, the idea that we could saves ourselves by pretending we don't have a strong proclivity to sin. Truly recognizing the need for a savior eventually takes the focus off of the sinner, even the nature of the sinner's total destitution.


    And just for the record, any expression of real Christianity is divinely rooted in Jesus Christ. It is sinners being divinely centered on Jesus, and being transformed by grace. It is not a doctrine of shame that denies the fact that sin, satan, and death was defeated by Jesus, and that it can be this way for all who are centered on Jesus through transformation by grace. It's not a sin-centered theology or one where the sinner is the center or lodestone of existence, as if sinner's made creation. This is why sin is fully recognized as sin, because the gospel of Christ kills the pride of man.

  6. #26
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NotOfTwo View Post
    Out of curiosity, how are you defining original sin? I have heard differences of opinion as to what it is.
    So have I, the definition which I associate with the RCC church is that everyone was damned by Adam's action, so everyone is born sinful and require baptism, most importantly, but other prescriptions for living, including sacraments, in order to have eternal life, rather than eternal damnation to hell. I dont like this idea because it kind of messes with my understanding of Jesus as an incarnation of God, how could he be born into a human vessel if all human vessels are damned? I mean human vessel as in human body, not trying to spark a debate about the immaculate conception or anything.

    There is also predestination and election, which as I understand it involve being selected before birth to either belong to the damned or the saved, you never can tell, perhaps if you work hard and become rich its a sign that God favours you and you're one of the elect predestined to heaven. I dont like that idea because its too similar to the social exclusivity which I associate with the ethno-nationalist version of "choosen people" which Jesus was pretty explicit in rejecting.

    I dont think that I accept the definition of original sin as an explanation for death, ie that were it not for each person being born with original sin we would all be immortal and live forever, I know that this is based upon the idea that Jesus born without sin and never being sinful did not die and would appear to have been indestructable like a movie monster, able to ressurect himself from the grave and fly up into the sky.

    I do think that I can accept ideas of original sin to do with doubt, ie that original sin should really be called original doubt, basic anxiety or original mistrust, and I would accept that it behaves in those who are possessed by it, in the same way as psychologists have described attachment disorders, seperation anxiety or neurotic trends acting upon individuals personal growth and development or capacities to form relationships, although in a spiritual and not just temporal sense.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    IT stems from the Bible's account of the Fall of Adam, and afterwards, scripture's testimony that "There is none who does good. Every one of them has together become corrupt. There is none who does good; no, not one!" (Psalms 53:1-3, Romans 3:10ff) "the heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; Who can know it? (17:9) "There is not a just man on earth who does good and does not sin". (Ecclesiastes 7:20).
    That's correct!

    (It's refreshing to see truth.)

    Quote Originally Posted by EvidenceOfRedemption View Post
    Sin can only be handled in one way: Jesus' death on the cross.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd Girl View Post
    That's correct!

    (It's refreshing to see truth.)
    Thats kinda scary you see that as truth.
    There is none who does good; no, not one!

    There is not a just man on earth who does good and does not sin.

    They are saying 2 different things. It is basically saying nothing anyone ever does is "good" ...period. They then attempt to "correct" it by saying..and does not sin...which to me says...well they may do good, but not everything they do is good

    Those are actually the reasons I dont follow religion or the bible. Its not refreshing to be looked down upon as if we "NEVER" do good. Should I really teach my child that? Your a failure in life...deal with it...but I still love you.

    edit: I prefer the "good job, give me five" approach. But to each there own I also tell him when he screwed up and its something to work on.
    Im out, its been fun

  9. #29
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EvidenceOfRedemption View Post
    I disagree. See:

    23 Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence. (Colossians 2:23)

    In fact, it is this tendency to try and manage one's own sin that is a legalistic loophole (and one which has no substance or real wisdom to it) where people can continue in it. It is still proud and disobedient to revel in the destitution of the sinner so much a person does not continue on to the sinner's salvation. This can lead you to be disqualified, because you'd stay stuck in a self-centered state... any state centered on self is still rooted in sin, it only seems humble but it isn't. How deceiving it is to focus on the sinner's destitution without recognizing the saving grace of Jesus.

    18 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility ... disqualify you. (Colossians 2:18)

    Sin can only be handled in one way: Jesus' death on the cross. To know, with belief as strong as factual proof, that Jesus died once and for all for those who sin (that means you and me). This is how sin is taken care of, it's killed out right. When we try to deny our own sin nature, whether overtly (false humility) or covertly, we're only entertaining a state of denial which I'm sure many could tell you is completely ineffective.

    If you think about it, it's a silly thing to believe. It's funny actually, the idea that we could saves ourselves by pretending we don't have a strong proclivity to sin. Truly recognizing the need for a savior eventually takes the focus off of the sinner, even the nature of the sinner's total destitution.
    Yeah, all that seems like far, far too passive a conception of mankind, God and Christianity.

    I've never been a big, big fan of the "Jesus the sacrifice" version of scriptural events, it appears fatalistic in the extreme to suppose this, and I like to ask the question, well, if things were different could Jesus have not died and what would have happened then, what I think was important as a redemption of mankind was not the death on the cross but the life and ministry, fundamentally the teachings, and the meaning of those in view of the ressurection. Its not the dying but the living which is important, including the second, resurrected life. Lazerus was raised from the dead too so it was not just Jesus that this happened to.

    That's so far as man goes, perhaps the dying was important to God too, he was apart from his creation and mankind until he was incarnate, he also experienced suffering and death first hand this way (which really should make the "problem of evil" people shut the hell up).

    There are parallels with Abraham and Jacob, I know that, although God spared Jacob he didnt Jesus, he didnt do as Abraham, but I dont believe that God was big on that sort of sacrifice and mankind has been seriously mistaken from the time of Abraham in its dialogue with him in supposing that its requisite for sacrifice of that sort to happen. Imagine if you build something and by its own volition it brought itself down or collapsed every time you sat down to admire it?

  10. #30
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by _Poki_ View Post
    Thats kinda scary you see that as truth.



    They are saying 2 different things. It is basically saying nothing anyone ever does is "good" ...period. They then attempt to "correct" it by saying..and does not sin...which to me says...well they may do good, but not everything they do is good

    Those are actually the reasons I dont follow religion or the bible. Its not refreshing to be looked down upon as if we "NEVER" do good. Should I really teach my child that? Your a failure in life...deal with it...but I still love you.
    No, I dont think you should teach anyone that, I also dont think its the actual teachings of Jesus either. Which lets be honest superseded or at least contextualised all the rest.

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