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Thread: Original sin?

  1. #11
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    @Jennifer , I still have that voice in my head that says, "You are being presumptuous, thinking you know better than [Religion] on your own state of existence. You are taking the easy road for your own selfish and sinful reasons." It's only a very little voice now, mostly an echo. It's what a controlling religion wants you to think, it's a trap with no way out. Except, that me leaving was anything but the easy way out for me, and I had assimilated these Christian values so deeply, the flaw in its own dogma became glaringly obvious to me. The wrongness of it was revealed by its own teachings. (There's my Fi!)

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    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    @Lark
    Oh, and FYI.. this doesn't mean that I don't think Christianity has some beauty and value to people. I know that different denominations emphasize the original sin to different degrees and to different effect. But, because of my upbringing, I just can't gloss over that point in the theology. It's always there, though maybe not as prominent.

  3. #13
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    This is a very long essay @Lark, but perhaps you will enjoy reading it as much as I have.

    http://www.gregboyd.org/essays/apolo...ven-arguments/

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    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    I still have that voice in my head that says, "You are being presumptuous, thinking you know better than [Religion] on your own state of existence. You are taking the easy road for your own selfish and sinful reasons." It's only a very little voice now, mostly an echo. It's what a controlling religion wants you to think, it's a trap with no way out. Except, that me leaving was anything but the easy way out for me, and I had assimilated these Christian values so deeply, the flaw in its own dogma became glaringly obvious to me. The wrongness of it was revealed by it's own teachings. (There's my Fi!)
    To me, it's an observation thing -- what I observe and what makes the most sense isn't what is being taught.

    And at some point, everything about faith is just an assumption that a human being makes. We can believe what we think makes sense -- whether it comes through observation, or through logic, or through feelings, or through imagination, or through some authority we have decided to believe beyond all those other things. We each still make a decision about what is most trustworthy... so ALL beliefs are determined internally. People who choose to believe an authority outside themselves (person, group, holy writ, or whatever) are still making a personal decision to believe that; believing an authority is no better than the other choices and I think has some glaring flaws since all truth thus becomes external and a person cannot credit themselves with any real source of judgment.

    What you describe is exactly what bad relationships do; the controlling person tries to remove all volition from the partner it seeks to dominate, by dismissing, downplaying, and undermining the partner's experience, wisdom, intelligence, and establishing itself as the only voice of truth.

    Original Sin is a big doctrine; like I said, the "need for a savior" hinges on it, and I was taught it at a very very early age so it was like a foundational truth for me. Eventually I came to accept it was far more ambiguous than was being let on, but people who don't accept it will be labeled as "not Christian" by some major branches of Christianity.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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    Senior Member tinker683's Avatar
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    I remember reading and hearing about during my confirmation classes when I was a Lutheran. My own pastor seemed to gloss over it and flat told us that it was up to us to believe it or not. When I was a fundy I believed it to be literally truth, when I became a liberal Christian I took it as an allegory or metaphor, and now as an atheist I think it's probably very similar to a lot of other creation myths and that their may or may be some symbolism inherit in it but otherwise don't assign it any value to my life.

    My own father, a deacon in the ELCA, doesn't give it any weight, which is interesting since the Book of Concord affirms it.
    "The man who is swimming against the stream knows the strength of it."
    ― Woodrow Wilson

  6. #16
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    as a female I happen to hold a grudge against any doctrine that paints my gender as the cause of the "fall of man" and therefore the originator of all sin in humanity... original sin has been used as an excuse for years for subjugating an entire gender, which is absolutely bullshit (similar to the Hammitic myth and the belief that less white people are therefore more sinful)

    also the concept that you're born guilty and automatically need salvation in order to avoid damnation is kind of disturbing... and opposite of the basis of the american legal system's belief in innocent until proven guilty... what kind of asshole just presumes that people are evil before they have proof to prove otherwise?

    it all reminds me of having to read sinners in the hands of an angry god in american lit, in which god is a total douchebag who really wants to just let go and drop everyone into hell... who wants to believe in someone like that?

    I've always been more for a checks and balances system of redemption... atone for what you've done wrong, but there's no need to apologize if you have done no wrong

    I have a lot of problems with christianity, original sin is just one of the many things on that list
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

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    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinker683 View Post
    My own father, a deacon in the ELCA, doesn't give it any weight, which is interesting since the Book of Concord affirms it.
    When I made my attempt to conform, it was with Missouri Synod Lutherans... that kind of stuff doesn't fly there. Then I tried to prod the SO to do the ELCA thing after I got allergic to MS services, that didn't fly either.

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    Feline Member kelric's Avatar
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    As someone who isn't religious, and more importantly who wasn't raised in a family that participated in and taught the specifics of a religious education (although the rest of my family considers themselves Christian) I'm coming from a different perspective than most previous posters...

    Honestly, I find the concept of original sin pretty insulting. If I'm to be judged, I would insist that I be judged on my own actions, for which I am am responsible, with extenuating circumstances taken into consideration. The idea that little baby Kelric (way back when, after I was hatched from an egg with my dinosaurian peers) came into life already damned, corrupt, and desperately in need of moral saving, seems utterly pessimistic and depraved. That's not to say that we as people don't need each other, that good examples, stories, and models aren't important, because they are. But a neutral start seems like a given.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Original Sin is a big doctrine; like I said, the "need for a savior" hinges on it, and I was taught it at a very very early age so it was like a foundational truth for me. Eventually I came to accept it was far more ambiguous than was being let on, but people who don't accept it will be labeled as "not Christian" by some major branches of Christianity.
    I think that this is a lot of it. Granted, my perspective isn't one from the "inside" of a religious community or tradition, so it's natural that I feel differently than people who have -- but to me, the concept of original sin seems more like a big hook to guilt-driven behavioral control.

    Short answer.. not a fan :p.
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    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    @Lark
    Oh, and FYI.. this doesn't mean that I don't think Christianity has some beauty and value to people. I know that different denominations emphasize the original sin to different degrees and to different effect. But, because of my upbringing, I just can't gloss over that point in the theology. It's always there, though maybe not as prominent.
    Oh yeah, I dont think there's any need to dismiss or minimise its significance but I'd not abandon a faith on that basis and I think its more human than divine in its origin.

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    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    as a female I happen to hold a grudge against any doctrine that paints my gender as the cause of the "fall of man" and therefore the originator of all sin in humanity... original sin has been used as an excuse for years for subjugating an entire gender, which is absolutely bullshit (similar to the Hammitic myth and the belief that less white people are therefore more sinful)
    What's interesting if you study the culture of it is how everything is spun around and rationalized so that those kind of gender roles become "positive affirmations" of gender differences rather than some sort of oppression of subgroups within the faith.

    Same thing with some of the doctrines, like Original Sin, which basically are spun around to assert that God is awesome because he loves us even if we're so screwed up.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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