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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spurgeon View Post
    @ Bologna:

    I don't understand your last post.

    Are you a Christian?

    If so, your previous posts make no sense.
    They make sense in one of the following two ways: either I'm extremely unaware of myself and am completely inconsistent, or there are underlying nuances, details, and reasons that you don't understand and that I could explain.

  2. #62
    Senior Member Spurgeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bologna View Post
    They make sense in one of the following two ways: either I'm extremely unaware of myself and am completely inconsistent, or there are underlying nuances, details, and reasons that you don't understand and that I could explain.
    You can hide behind "underlying nuances, details, and reasons" all you want, but God is not fooled in the least.

    Come now, be wise.

    I say this as one sinner to another:

    Believe in Jesus Christ and be saved. Forsake your own wisdom, and seek wisdom from above. Repent of your unbelief. Take refuge in Christ and you'll be spared from God's wrath.

    Look--here is the Word of Almighty God:

    Jesus said,
    "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.” (John 6:40)

    Do you see him now?

    If not, then you are still in darkness.

    But if you see him, then believe in him.

    All around you, souls are perishing in their sin and unbelief. I beg you not to perish with them.

    God is having mercy on you, right now as you read this.

    Jesus said, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.” (John 7:37-38)

    You are dead in your trespasses and sins, but, in the name of Jesus Christ, arise and live!

    Do it now.

    Your next breath is not guaranteed to you.

    I pray that you will among those who believe and are saved, in front of these many witnesses, to the glory of God.

    AMEN.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spurgeon View Post
    I pray that you will among those who believe and are saved.
    You really do not demonstrate that you actually care about me, that you're trying to understand me, or that you actually care about getting your message across. You say your words and feel that you have fulfilled your responsibility. You haven't.

    I know what your point of view is; you're very overt. But you're so blind to mine that you don't even know whether I'm a Christian. Here's the thing: you are wasting your time proselytizing to someone who's already effectively on your side and is trying to tell you how to effectively get your message across to other people. As someone who has worked right alongside very successful missionaries, I know a thing or two about it.

    Believe me; I'm not trying to fool God or to fool you. I outright stated that I could (and wanted to) explain myself, to weave a thread of thought that makes all of this make sense, to get it all right there in the open so that we could have a dialog. But this doesn't matter to you; you don't want me to explain myself; you communicate in the only way that you know how.

    Long and short: If you don't attempt to understand where the other person is actually coming from, then you're not giving due diligence to actually communicating your message; you're not properly leading or pointing anyone to where you think they ought to be.

  4. #64
    Senior Member Spurgeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bologna View Post
    You really do not demonstrate that you actually care about me, that you're trying to understand me, or that you actually care about getting your message across. You say your words and feel that your responsibility is finished. It isn't.

    I know what your point of view is; you're very overt. But you're so blind to mine that you don't even know whether I'm a Christian. Here's the thing: you are wasting your time proselytizing to someone who's already on your side but is trying to tell you how to effectively get your message across to other people. As someone who has worked right alongside very successful missionaries, I know a thing or two about it.

    Believe me; I'm not trying to fool God or to fool you. I outright stated that I could (and wanted to) explain myself, to weave a thread of thought that makes all of this make sense, to get it all right there in the open so that we could have a dialog. But this doesn't matter to you; you don't want me to explain myself; you communicate in the only way that you know how.

    Long and short: If you don't attempt to understand where the other person is actually coming from, then you're not giving due diligence to actually communicating your message; you're not properly leading or pointing anyone to where you think they ought to be.
    I'm not interested in your opinion or in my own.

    I'm interested in the Truth of the Gospel, and it's power to save lost sinners.

    Read my post again.

    God has orchestrated this moment for you, either to your salvation or your damnation.

    Ignore it at your own peril. I've done all I can.

  5. #65
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    THE RELIGION DOES NOT LIE. Religions are given to the ancient earthly civilizations.. civilizations that were very limited in their knowledge... they had no idea about how complex the system really is... their universe was composed around what they saw, meaning the surrounding universe (earth, trees, the mountains, the seas and so on) and a small corner of the galaxy, some constellations and nebulae and that's it. Of course that they thought that God or gods created everything that they saw.
    Now our perception about the world and universe has changed because we know much more about it.. we have a much larger view about the universe and of course our perception about God is different. The more we know the more we attribute to God (from the Bible) all the creation.. and is false.
    If you gonna read the ancient manuscripts and the decodings, phrase by phrase, you will understand the whole story. I fermly believe 99%, that this is the truth, but that's just my belief.. nothing else.
    If we talk about omniverse then the absolute God is the existence which is not a person but the whole omniversal system and we are all part of this system, you me, galaxies, this universe, the branes and the multiverses and the eternal and infinite omniverse... but we go too far with our views. There is a theory who suggest that this universe may be a creation of some other extraterrestrial (extra-universal) civilizations from other universes who are at a level of evolution that are beyond our imagination. There is a possibility that Yahweh could create this universe.. who knows. But if you ask me the possibility is very little to be true. But in the end we don't know at what level of evolution they are.

  6. #66
    Junior Member Horrible Aesthete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spurgeon View Post
    In darkness and ignorance, you blaspheme and dishonor God with these foolish words, and you do so to your own destruction.
    Aw, shucks, I was just getting started.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spurgeon View Post
    I'm not interested in your opinion or in my own.

    I'm interested in the Truth of the Gospel, and it's power to save lost sinners.

    Read my post again.

    God has orchestrated this moment for you, either to your salvation or your damnation.

    Ignore it at your own peril. I've done all I can.
    My point is that you haven't done all that you can and that you can do more by actually reaching out in an effective manner.

    Opinion hasn't entered into this--and I haven't ignored the message. The fact is that you have no choice but to work with human nature as it is, imperfections and all, if you ever hope to change it with the truth. This is what highly successful missionaries have learned.

  8. #68
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    "Pointing people to Christ" in the wrong way gives Jesus and Christians a bad name, and probably loses more followers than it gains. If all responsibility rests with the listener, however, then it really doesn't matter what the missionary does. He is acting purely for his own satisfaction or fulfillment. As long as others recognize this, no harm/no foul, I suppose.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    "Pointing people to Christ" in the wrong way gives Jesus and Christians a bad name, and probably loses more followers than it gains. If all responsibility rests with the listener, however, then it really doesn't matter what the missionary does. He is acting purely for his own satisfaction or fulfillment. As long as others recognize this, no harm/no foul, I suppose.
    Yeah. The problem is that the speakers don't recognize that they're doing so only to appease themselves.

    What would have happened in this conversation if I had simply mentioned upfront that I wasn't exactly a Christian? Whammo, immediate doorslam. At least I had a slim chance of bridging the gap, to get my points across--but I still failed on that one.

    I may as well just flat out state the following: that I've been on Christian mission trips primarily because I believed in their practical causes (e.g. helping out the children, building houses, etc.), that I participate in religious diversity groups primarily to raise awareness that a lack of religion doesn't equate to self-centeredness or a lack of morality, and that I've belonged to other religion-centered life groups and churches--especially the 'looser' ones--because of the personal development and sense of belonging that they bring. I've also sought out an understanding of their mindset and that it has helped shape my own worldview in many ways.

    I personally believe that many of the religious are just a bit 'off course'--some much more than others--but that we ought not throw the baby out with the bathwater. If great and wonderful things are done 'in the name of God'--well, they're still being done. Eventually, we'll get to the point where they're being done for absolutely the right reasons, but it'll take some more cultural shifting.

    None of this actually contradicts anything that I've said in this thread, amusingly; ideas can be packaged in a wide variety of ways to reach a variety of audiences.

    But now I've outed myself again as a blasphemer.

  10. #70
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    "Pointing people to Christ" in the wrong way gives Jesus and Christians a bad name, and probably loses more followers than it gains. If all responsibility rests with the listener, however, then it really doesn't matter what the missionary does. He is acting purely for his own satisfaction or fulfillment. As long as others recognize this, no harm/no foul, I suppose.
    I dont know that missionaries are working for their own satisfaction or fulfillment, at least no more so than any action or choice can be properly attributed to anything other than that (and my knowledge of motivation does make me doubt altruism).

    The thing about evangelists and missionaries is that of those I've known they seriously believed that without their intervention to persuade others to adopt their beliefs, or at the very least abandon their own, that those people would be fated to hell and damnation. Some of them were pretty personally tortured individuals about it to be honest.

    I would also say that I'm unsure about a lot of the protestant evangelist schools of thought, of a great many of them they dont entirely know or understand their own history and origins, many of the principle doctrines I believe they would find as estranging as those they believe characterise the religions or traditions they want others to abandon. A great many of the judgements upon other belief systems resemble more commonplace secular or modern prejudices.

    I will be honest and say that while I am a practicing RC and very interested in other cultures, other civilisations and both the pre-Christian and, in some respects, post-Christian thought. That works for me and involves a lot of disparite and diverse content. I'm not al a carte or practice what is convenient though.

    I am unsure if I would recommend it to others and of those who I know who have converted, not merely because they have intermarried RCs or have RC family, some of them are not good representatives of my own beliefs matrix. What I guess is important is that I have no presonal stake in others adopting my beliefs or abandoning their own. Discussion is good but I've no problem with respectful disagreement or conscientous objections provided that those who do understand that I'm not going to adopt their beliefs or norms either.

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