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  1. #11
    Senior Member Synapse's Avatar
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    let me elaborate

    Judaism
    The Social Egregor of the 22nd Channel – the Judaism

    Judaism is monotheistic religion, where the division exists: there is God - the Creator, who has created man, there is some intermediate link of the creation - Angels and there are people, and all they are not relatives to each other... God has created man, man is not genetically connected with him - there is a difference between “a piece of clay” and the Creator. There is absolutely clear division in the Judaism on the “higher forces”, on which the person depends, and the person itself. The higher forces are Almighty, the person completely depends on them, he can only "please" them, the higher forces have a tool to “gain one's point”, thus the person can demand nothing, he can only ask (without the right of a vote). The Creator from the point of view of the Judaism is incognizable thing, so the behaviour of incognizable system is unpredictable, he has established "the Law", on which people should live (if you live “under the law” you are "pleasing" to God and are "not pleasing" if not). The law was presented to Moses in the form of the Tablets of Testimony - the law given from above, it can not be disputed, it's possible only to follow it.
    It is said "We will make it at first, then we will look" in the Judaism...

    God is a certain "principle" in the Judaism, something like electromagnetic field in the Physics (on the one hand, he exists, and on another - as if does not exist), nobody has told there, that God is a person, on the contrary, where God meets people, he appears in the form of the Voice, or in the form of some Energy (for example, the Pillar of Fire).
    In the Judaism, on the assumption of that God is all and he is in everything, no place is considered more sacred, than another, except some sacred relics where He was personally shown.
    There is a Synagogue in the Judaism (from Greek συναγωγή, transliterated synagogē, "assembly" - “house of assembly”), the place where the community gathers and discusses there all their affairs. Synagogue itself is not considered especial, more sacred place than the others. Hence “it doesn't matter where are you praying - God is everywhere”. There is no more “sacred” person than another in the Judaism, therefore Rabbis are only “the keepers of the Law” (are not saints), they're the most scientific people, who know the Law and can interpret it, can speak what to do to the common people in one or another case (“encyclopaedists - reference books”, to which everyone can come and receive some interpretation and instruction; you will not ask the priest about, for example, in what colour to paint walls, and Rabbi is obliged to answer all these questions since he is considered to be wise - he has no sanctity but he has knowledge - he advises as the lawyer). It's the private matter of Rabbi how he lives since he is simply “wisdom consultant”, but not the saint one.
    The great importance is given to the prayer itself as "the way of communication” in the Judaism, thus the person should be in a certain mode, and it's considered, that the person who carries some daily routine and sticks to some diet, is in the state of communication. Man is completely dependent on the higher forces, and they do not depend on him, and there's nobody to complain to (“The Angel of the West Window”, Gustav Meyrink). Here we deal with the "principle of pleasantness of God”: if the person is godly - obeys the Laws, then his life most likely (but absolutely not obligatory) will succeed somehow, and if the person is not godly - “they will be the judges of him”.
    Christianity
    The Social Egregor of the 21st Channel – Christianity

    Energies of the 22nd and 21st Arcana are derivative, Christianity initially "left" Judaism as its certain alteration. There is no "bridge" between God and man in Judaism, there are only prophets, who are trying to make out “the dispensation on the next 2 hours”; there is such "bridge" in Christianity - God-man who have brought the New Testament. But Jesus Christ did not Create "Christianity" - all "New Testament" is addressed to his followers, people who were long enough with him and whom he had taught individually; these people were not ordinary people. Christianity was created approximately in the 5th century, it was the product of consolidation of the separate sects, which means that bishops, who were at the head of separate communities, gathered on the “Oecumenical Council” and have created Christianity there, but initially there were many separated closed communities, each of which cultivated some own "kind" of Christianity. Only on this Council (approximately in 500 years after the death of Christ) the Canon of doctrine was formed. The “Canonical Gospels” and Apocrypha were made immediately: 12 apostles have written 12 "memoirs", "the evidence" of only some of them "fits", and the others give out rather inconsistent data (and everyone in own way). Everything that was inconsistent and gone against the stream, was named "Apocrypha" and they have not entered into the "Canon" - it was formed of those Gospels, which speak roughly about the same.
    The principles stated in the Gospel are addressed to the people who are on the high enough level (the followers of Christ). The basic difference between "Old testament" and "New Testament" is in here: if it is told in the Old Testament “For God will bring every deed into judgment, including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil.” (Ecclesiastes 12:14), which means that you should answer only for what you have done (the person can be "made answerable" only for what he has physically done); then in the New Testament it is told “But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken.” (Matthew 12:36), since Christ had taught his Followers to do spiritual practices (it means that his followers were at least magicians of the 1st level, and some of them had gone even further), and the work of consciousness, the thought in magic is making, and their thought is already the work. If to judge the person of the 1st caste for thoughts, it's useless - there are no thoughts, if to judge people of the 2-3 castes, they should be "quartered" - there are sheer “bad thoughts”.
    The principle of this “new law about thoughts” correlates with the energies of the 21st Arcanum: the very strong discipline of thinking is required to remain in the 21st Arcanum - if you are possessed with the greed, you will not exist even for a minute in the 21st Arcanum, as if the basic state there is “free soaring” (all is given to you, but it's prohibited to catch it with hands). The Siddha of the 21st Arcanum "is given" to you in the 21st Arcanum, but when you start to analyze whence it is given, why and so on, "it" comes to an end. The key to this Siddha is the state which is called “pleasantness of God”, which includes the concept of "thoughts" (i.e. it is necessary to think in a certain way to be godly), as the system of a sin exists in the internal coordinate system: if, relative to all directives which you have, your deed is "wrong", it's the sin indeed. And if, relative to your internal coordinate system, your deed is "correct", then it's not the sin. But you are in the society, therefore your internal coordinate system interacts and correlates all the time with the coordinate system of society, with social norms; and there are different societies with the different Laws (for example, “the society of thieves”). Though man has the directive of the egregor of species that people should not kill each other, the directives of the different societies allow (approve) to do this - the skill “to kill people from the other pack”, and further the person "doesn't have" any sins ("remorse"), and the sin is to disobey this law. The person of any other system "will be wrong" from the outside. So, sin (in any religion) is the violation of the directives of society, in the 21st Arcanum “God-fear” consists in the coincidence with the directives of the egregor: if you don't violate the directives of the egregor, you conduct the Energy of the 21st Arcanum.
    Energy of the 21st Arcanum underlies in all kinds of Christianity and these kinds differ in details: every frequency range has some spread (from the beginning to the end) - we deal with a sinusoid, so some "kind" of Christianity conducts the maximum of sinusoid (corresponds to the signal maximum), and some is “at the side”, and there is a dispute between Christianity branches “who has the higher amplitude”, “who is on the frequency maximum”.
    Islam
    The Social Egregor of the 19th Channel – Islam

    Islam is one of the 3 world religions. Islam is the 2nd derivative of Judaism (the 1st derivative is Christianity), Islam had absorbed Judaism and Christianity in itself. Here we deal with the state of religious ecstasy and this is the inner state. This Arcanum is connected with the concept of "internal happiness” - when the person enters into the state of religious ecstasy, he feels “the state of happiness”, which is connected with the inclusion in the egregor - the “feeding”, energy interaction with the egregor occurs. Here we deal with the state of man which “joins with all” (as “God is everything”) and this state of resonance is called religious ecstasy - his state when he is connected to the egregor (his "part" of Energies, which he receives).
    When we speak about the modern movement of Muslims, we see the aggressive enough position (the organisations of terrorists, suicide bombers etc.) which is incomprehensible from the point of view of the western person (those people, who give their life for the fulfilment of some abstract idea, are incomprehensible); but from within Islam it looks absolutely in a different way: joining with Allah, the person is in the state of happiness, and when he realises the will of Allah, Allah becomes nearer to him (the resonance became stronger), and people going to death etc. are carrying out the state of religious ecstasy.
    The nature of this "happiness": personality is joined with the “biggest structure”, any person who is within the limits of some religion, "is connected" to the egregor of this religion, connected to this “big structure” and the interaction between him and the structure occurs. But when the person is in the state of religious ecstasy, the efficiency factor of this communication increases considerably, which means that the person starts to interact with the greatest amplitude of this egregor, the matching of frequencies occurs. In the basis of this resonance is the changing of the speed of life, the changing of the speed of processes in organism - herefrom, for example, the whirling (rotary motions) as the way to be accelerated, or, on the contrary, meditation as the way to be slowed down. It means that it's necessary to concure with the egregor on the time in order to coincide with it, therefore techniques which are used to enter the resonance, are changing the speed of movement of the person in time - slow down or accelerate him.
    The principle “not to designate God in the form of any symbol” is very strictly followed in Islam - God cannot be designated with something and cannot be likened to something, herefrom there are no icons in the Islam. There is a certain sacred subject “the Kaaba stone”, which had fallen in former times from the sky, being in the basis of the one of the greatest muslim mosques now, but there are 2 branches of Islam for all that: Sunnis and Shiites, who are absolutely differently thinking about this stone (one acknowledge its sanctity, and others consider that as God is inexpressable, he cannot be expressed with some stone), and there is confrontation between them.
    Muftis in Islam are simply “the overseers behind the law” (in order to have all people lived correctly), Hajjis bear own sanctity in themselves as they have made Hajj (the annual pilgrimage to Mecca). The mosque in Islam is simply special place where the people gather for prayers (as a room for meditation at Buddhists); this is the place built in a certain energy point, where a certain "order" is supported. It is considered that “the group prayer reaches the addressee better”, unlike Christianity, where the prayer works "individually", and it's considered in Islam that “group prayers” have the better effectiveness, but then people are praying in Islam about something "greater".
    It is said here, that there was Prophet Muhammad, who had foreseen certain living conditions of man, when he comes into resonance with God - it is a little spoken about Cosmogony in the Koran, about the essence of God (what he represents from himself) and it is much spoken about how the person should behave - “certain norms” are described and they're “the conditions of resonance”.
    Energy interaction with the egregor gives “the state of happiness”. Since we deal with the state “here and now”, we deal with a mathematical point. All our problems, sorrows and misfortunes are ahead from the present moment or behind it on the timeline, and the World only exists “here and now” (Christian theologists say: “Satan exists only in our consciousness”). We cease to model the World in this state and are simply perceiving Energy of the World, Energy of the Sun, which heats this World, we are “connecting to the present minute”. In the 19th Arcanum the person “here and now” receives the connection with egregor (19th Arcanum) and the feeding with Energy, he feels joy “here and now” (without postponing its reception for the period of afterlife (see M.Twain's “Captain Stormfield's Visit to Heaven”)). The "award" here consists in the state of unity with God, the ecstasy which you feel just "now".
    The moral of the story who can say...

  2. #12
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd Girl View Post
    So Jung was into mysticism, which means he wasn't gripped by God , he was gripped by demons
    Gripped by demons.
    Ah, yes . . .

    Like menstruating women, in the days of old.

  3. #13
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd Girl View Post
    Lawd, everything suddenly makes sense. [I did some more research.] Jung was a leader in the study of visualization and the unconscious. So Jung was into mysticism, which means he wasn't gripped by God [like he thought], he was gripped by demons; it's doubtful he knew that's what they were. He wrote about his spirit guides where he was first led by a spirit guide called Elijah, which eventually he wrote about changed into an elderly man, Philemon. Jung wrote that Philemon was an external force that had power over his mind. Jung said, "Philemon represented a force which was not myself...it was he who taught me psychic objectivity, the reality of the psyche...there is something in me which can say things that I do not know and do not intend."
    He seriously must have thought his spirit guides were God or God's angels leading him into truth.

    No wonder some people thought he was insane. He wasn't insane at all; I believe he met with an external force just like he said, and he was deceived.

    I think @Victor tried to warn me in a cryptic way and I didn't get it. Now I get it. Victor, please correct me if I'm wrong. Gotta love spiritual hindsight. :\

    Source: http://www.crystalinks.com/jung.html
    Actually when he talked of external force leading him that is not him, he was talking about archetypes leading the ego.

    The way archetypes function is exactly this, they lead your conscious thinking to focus in certain things.

    Jung himself said that archetypes are coming from the structures of brain that were created in earlier stages of evolution and thats why is evident in everyone due to shared earlier stage genes. And this is what he said in his last book('man and his symbols' to which he only wrote first chapter before dying), so he didnt have time to change his mind about this.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    Actually when he talked of external force leading him that is not him, he was talking about archetypes leading the ego.

    The way archetypes function is exactly this, they lead your conscious thinking to focus in certain things.

    Jung himself said that archetypes are coming from the structures of brain that were created in earlier stages of evolution and thats why is evident in everyone due to shared earlier stage genes. And this is what he said in his last book('man and his symbols' to which he only wrote first chapter before dying), so he didnt have time to change his mind about this.
    Do you have a specific reference where Jung stated that? After reviewing the videos and several websites, I don't think that's correct. Jung specifically commented on talking to different spiritual entities and called them by name. I posted a quote from Jung earlier in the thread where he named the entities.

  5. #15
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    He wasnt just interested in alchemy, he said that he is alchemist and saw alchemy as sort o the original truth where other religions are originated from.
    Yeah, now by that I'm willing to bet that he meant the hermeutic and symbolic basis of alchemy, in which case it is a little bit like anyone who uses analytical thinking calling themselves an analyst, you see?

    Although that said he did build some tower for himself and apparently lived a life on a par with Merlin or something so who knows, there was an awful lot more to alchemy than transmutation of base metals to gold, wether you consider that literally or metaphorically.

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    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reason View Post
    Carl Jung was a very silly man.
    Silly like Einstein.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synapse View Post
    lol

    I hope you realise bible's are transmitted in the same manner and they too thought their spirits were God or God's angels leading them into truth and then they translated their views to scripture and mass consciousness agreed with the belief. Instead of understanding they were tapping into ancient egregores and are being deceived.
    Yeah right man. Maybe you.

  8. #18
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synapse View Post
    let me elaborate

    Judaism


    Christianity


    Islam


    The moral of the story who can say...
    Lark can say and Lark says BULLSHIT I'm afraid. What is this weird stuff you're tapping out man, seriously? I noticed it in other threads besides this one too, dont read any note of hostility into my response because its not there, its just wonder because at this juncture I fully expect you to be posting, unsupported pictures of the moon in threads or something like that.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    Actually when he talked of external force leading him that is not him, he was talking about archetypes leading the ego.

    The way archetypes function is exactly this, they lead your conscious thinking to focus in certain things.

    Jung himself said that archetypes are coming from the structures of brain that were created in earlier stages of evolution and thats why is evident in everyone due to shared earlier stage genes. And this is what he said in his last book('man and his symbols' to which he only wrote first chapter before dying), so he didnt have time to change his mind about this.
    Was it not that complexes become channels for mental energy or focus, not sure if he used Freud's word libido or had his own totally non-erotic terminology, those complexes then morph into an archetype drawn from the collective unconscious or ancestoral memories?

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Was it not that complexes become channels for mental energy or focus, not sure if he used Freud's word libido or had his own totally non-erotic terminology, those complexes then morph into an archetype drawn from the collective unconscious or ancestoral memories?
    Jung used the word libido in pretty much the same manner as we today speak of action potential in neuropsychology http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_potential , expect its noted today that its the same thing that happens in everywhere in our bodies, while jung saw it only a mental energy.

    Well the definition of complex is "clusters of feeling toned associations around a common theme". If you think about money for example and think it as the theme and all feeling toned memories you have about money as the associations around it, the first time you had a summer job and was able to buy your first car, when you were little and figured out that you can change money to candy etc etc. Now because of these associations you have developed over the years aroun money is what makes you see money as something else than just a piece of fancy paper. People often think at complex as something negative, which it naturally can be, but isnt it always. It is more prone of being negative because negative things are more easily repressed and repressed things form complexes easier.

    These complexes wont morph themselves into archetypes, but you are able to make archetypal associations around some theme, which forms an complex. Im not sure if its neccesary for archetype to have an complex to link itself to in order to have an effect, but that certainly makes the effect of the archetype stronger.

    Its not that complexes become a channel, but because there are loads of associations around the theme(which together makes the complex), the complex has more energy than a single thought and can even seem to have its own energy.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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