There is no God

[Ginkgo]

You can't 'logic your way past that point' because there is nothing beyond that point. However, the least we can ask is that explanations of the beginning of universe avoid basic logical errors. It may be that the Big Bang was not the beginning of the universe, but if it was, then there was nothing 'before' the Big Bang, because time didn't exist before the Big Bang. The timeline begins with the Big Bang: no befores allowed. You might as well ask 'what came before there was such thing as before?'

It's like people who ask 'What's outside the universe?' They may as well be asking 'What's an exception to everything?' There is no exception to everything, there is no outside to the universe, there is no creator of everything, and there is no before the universe.

NOTE: the word 'universe' traditionally just means everything. It is sometimes used to mean something slightly different in modern physics, but here I am using the term in its classical sense.

That's horribly confining. I'M SUFFOCATING!

 

[1487610420]

[YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjgy-7PViUA"]Relevant[/YOUTUBE]

 

[A window to the soul]

1. There is no Theistic God.

2. You hate the effects that the belief in Theistic Gods causes.


Of course, only the first is necessary (and strictly, it is not) I can explain this if you'd like - the latter is merely common, and for good reason I think.

On another note, those who are quoting the Bible should first tell us why it's a good source for knowledge about God. I'm going to read through the 12 pages now; I just wanted to clear that up

Nerd Girl,

You have an answer to everything that is said to you. I wish you would use a source that wasn't question-begging. That is, literally every one of your posts that I have seen presupposes your being correct as an assumption - using the fact that you are correct to explain why you are correct. That's not useful.

I assert that God is Necessarily irrelevant to ethics - to what is good, or if he is not, than that we could never know the difference between ANY good act or ANY evil act

It appears you barged in here demanding *I* (out of all of the folks here) provide *you* proof that God exists and an explanation as to why I posted Bible scriptures. The Bible is the #1 selling book in the world; approximately 100 million copies are sold every week. It is a credible source of information. Take it or leave it. I choose to take it. I make no apologies for that nor did I stuff it down your throat.

Then, you make the smartass remark that I have an answer to everything. Normally I do, LOL, but not in this thread, no sir. So I wonder, how is it possible that you know that about me because I have never seen or talked to you before? I can only assume you're stalking me. ...I'm kidding.

Seriously, I can only assume you're talking about the Bible scriptures I quoted at the beginning of the thread. So for clarification, I don't have all of the answers do I? More accurately, my answers came out of the Bible and that's why you're here, isn't it?

I would like to direct you to your own personal online edition of the Bible, where you can search and find the answers to all of your questions, http://www.bible.com.

I have a question that should explain this. I am asking it to all Christians and believers of a conscious creator who still intervenes in affairs. My question to you is Socrates' to Euthyphro: What is good, and ethical, and right? More specifically, what is God's relation to it? More specifically still, do we know what is good because God tells us, or does God love what is good, so that there is a sort of harmony?

Socrates' to Euthyphro? (I don't understand your question.)

 

[redacted]

That wasn't what I said. You are avoiding the question. What I said is that the atheists, agnostics or whatever you call youself came up with the conclusion that there is no God without even having the most basic answers. This is what I find naive.

The answer to the question you are calling basic is literally impossible to get to. You can't get to it either. So, you come to the conclusion that there IS a God "without even having the most basic answers" as well.

All I'm trying to say is that the "what happened before the beginning of the universe" question is absurd -- it doesn't help either side of the God debate whatsoever. I'm not trying to use it as evidence against God, I'm just trying to show you it isn't evidence FOR God. At least hold your arguments to the same standards you hold mine to.

 

[redacted]

There is no reason to think that we are capable of conveying the right ideas to explain the event.

This is my biggest problem with the Theist stance. You're giving up.

We might not be able to know everything, but we should at least try to maximize our descriptive efficiency. Saying that some things are just too awesome to convey is a philosophy that ends exploration.

 

[guesswho]

Interesting fact:

Studies have shown that the more people invest feelings into different theories and base beliefs on them, the more convinced they are that the theories are true.

This is true to both god believers and non believers.

WHY does it matter so much if the person you're talking to believes in God or not.

WHY ?

 

[guesswho]

To me this is proof that we don't know if there is a God or not:

The mere SIZE of the universe tends to point that it's not spinning around us, we're not that special and that if there were another being somewhere we'd have no fucking clue it exists and that other being would have no clue we exist either.
It would be also absurd to assume that this huge chunk of space was made for us or anything else, or that we have any kind of significant role in it.

It's just there and we don't know why.

(The comoving distance from Earth to the edge of the observable universe is about 14 billion parsecs (46 billion, or 4.6 × 10(that's supposed to be a smaller 10 on top)10, light years) in any direction. The observable universe is thus a sphere with a diameter of about 29 billion parsecs[15] (93 billion, or 9.3 × 1010, light years)[16]. Assuming that space is roughly flat, this size corresponds to a comoving volume of about 3.5 × 1080 cubic meters. This is equivalent to a volume of about 410 nonillion cubic light-years (4.1 × 1032 cubic light years) ) - Wikipedia So yeah it's fucking big.
--------------------------------------------------------------
I like to look at things from this perspective.

There is no God, and everything evolved from something else and the universe is basically experiencing itself through life forms.

The atoms get to form life, and life gets to be conscious, and bang, what was once a chunk of fucking rock is now thinking and asking questions.

Interesting

Will the life forms get to know any of the secrets of this vast chunk of empty space?

 

[Sniffles]

So the theory of opposites implicitly existing stops because of illogical creation? That's cool. I suppose you can't invent logic, but you can invent a logical meaning. I usually do say that we don't invent, but discover. I suppose I should concede my argument then .

That is true yes.

I guess one argument I could give about how logic is discovered not invented is to point to some of the considerable parallels between Western and Indian logic. But I'll stop there, since Indian philosophy is still a relative new field for me.

But this might be of interest, since it talks about the basic workings of the intellect and how it relates to knowing god:
[youtube="AG7QAEAZYlk"]Human intellect[/youtube]

Hmm... I need to find some nice INFJ boy to settle down with and create insane NF babies with.

Oh dear.

 

[Qlip]

This is my biggest problem with the Theist stance. You're giving up.

We might not be able to know everything, but we should at least try to maximize our descriptive efficiency. Saying that some things are just too awesome to convey is a philosophy that ends exploration.

You're just assuming that I'm giving up. I'm more interested in science than most people and as for my more metaphysical interests, I persue those as well. There are just... technical difficulties.

Honestly I don't think a professed or decided belief in God really changes much about how a person relates to the world in the ways that matter.

 

[redacted]

You're just assuming that I'm giving up. I'm more interested in science than most people and as for my more metaphysical interests, I persue those as well. There are just... technical difficulties.

Honestly I don't think a professed or decided belief in God really changes much about how a person relates to the world in the ways that matter.

I'm confused then. Are you saying you try as hard as you can to understand everything, and then everything else is God? I guess that does make sense, although it seems like you would have less incentive to explore what you've assigned to the God category.

 

[Qlip]

I'm confused then. Are you saying you try as hard as you can to understand everything, and then everything else is God? I guess that does make sense, although it seems like you would have less incentive to explore what you've assigned to the God category.

I more like take all the things I'm fucking sure about, which isn't as many things as you would think and create a framework in which they coexist, comepare it to what I see everyday then adjust ad infinitum. I'm pretty damned sure that the scientific process tells use useful stuff about the universe and I don't see how God could possibly have a separate catagory from anything, really.

 

[1487610420]

Relevant

 

[redacted]

I more like take all the things I'm fucking sure about, which isn't as many things as you would think and create a framework in which they coexist, comepare it to what I see everyday then adjust ad infinitum. I'm pretty damned sure that the scientific process tells use useful stuff about the universe and I don't see how God could possibly have a separate catagory from anything, really.

Then what role does God play?

 

[A window to the soul]

To me this is proof that we don't know if there is a God or not:

http://www.ozanimals.com/image/albums/australia/Insect/fireant.jpg
http://images.travelpod.com/users/marymc21/1.1252725990.some-of-people-s-square-subway-station.jpg
http://files.coloribus.com/files/ad...ile/satellite-navigation-city-small-69039.jpg
http://www.solstation.com/stars/earth.jpg
http://www.astropix.com/IMAGES/D_SUM_S/MILKYWAY.JPG

The mere SIZE of the universe tends to point that it's not spinning around us, we're not that special and that if there were another being somewhere we'd have no fucking clue it exists and that other being would have no clue we exist either.
It would be also absurd to assume that this huge chunk of space was made for us or anything else, or that we have any kind of significant role in it.

It's just there and we don't know why.

(The comoving distance from Earth to the edge of the observable universe is about 14 billion parsecs (46 billion, or 4.6 × 10(that's supposed to be a smaller 10 on top)10, light years) in any direction. The observable universe is thus a sphere with a diameter of about 29 billion parsecs[15] (93 billion, or 9.3 × 1010, light years)[16]. Assuming that space is roughly flat, this size corresponds to a comoving volume of about 3.5 × 1080 cubic meters. This is equivalent to a volume of about 410 nonillion cubic light-years (4.1 × 1032 cubic light years) ) - Wikipedia So yeah it's fucking big.
--------------------------------------------------------------
I like to look at things from this perspective.

There is no God, and everything evolved from something else and the universe is basically experiencing itself through life forms.

The atoms get to form life, and life gets to be conscious, and bang, what was once a chunk of fucking rock is now thinking and asking questions.

Interesting

Will the life forms get to know any of the secrets of this vast chunk of empty space?

Aw, lol, someday we will understand all of the mysteries. God knows you exist and he loves you very much. He even knows the number of hairs on your head. And every single one of the stars in the sky, God created, and he knows them by name.

I loved your post and the photos.

 

[Billy]

God exists way before our creation.

Yeah thats true but only like 2 weeks before.

 

[LEGERdeMAIN]

Well I'm a very organized guy. I like to take things step by step. The basic answers would be to know everything about the starting point.

What do we know about the starting point??

 

[A window to the soul]

What do we know about the starting point??

Genesis Chapter 1.

 

[Kraska]

The answer to the question you are calling basic is literally impossible to get to. You can't get to it either. So, you come to the conclusion that there IS a God "without even having the most basic answers" as well.

All I'm trying to say is that the "what happened before the beginning of the universe" question is absurd -- it doesn't help either side of the God debate whatsoever. I'm not trying to use it as evidence against God, I'm just trying to show you it isn't evidence FOR God. At least hold your arguments to the same standards you hold mine to.

Correct. You can't answer that question and nor can I. However atheists seem to have answered the question already by saying there is not God. That is accordind to me a closed statement that cannot be discused. When we say that there is a God, we allow people to think for themselves about what God means. Be it a human like entity or an energy or whatever.

 

[Totenkindly]

The Bible is the #1 selling book in the world; approximately 100 million copies are sold every week. It is a credible source of information.

I was unsure about credibility of "The DaVinci Code," but knowing it was on the best seller list for so long, my doubts have vanished!

People don't necessarily buy the Bible because it is a credible source of information in the way that this thread is discussing credible information. And not all those copies are bought by people who have been won over by it; how many are bought by those who want to proselytize others, or are shipping them overseas to start new churches, etc?

People buy the Bible to examine it (because it IS so prevalent in Western culture; it's kind of the same reason people eat at McDonald's even if the food isn't nearly as good; the brand is pervasive); they also buy it because they ALREADY believe and the Bible is thus being examined to find points to use to buttress that belief as well as explore those beliefs; etc.

I mean, obviously you find it credible because you have had personal experiences or a life narrative where you already believe, and so then you decide to trust the Bible and assume it to be correct across the board. It's not really the other way around, where you dissected the Bible to determine your original belief in God. It's rather the same concept as people who have already decided they are going to play hockey will then purchase ice skates and hockey gear.

I don't really see what the relevance is in justifying the Bible's content by how many copies are sold weekly. Any validity will have to come through other means.

 

[Giggly]

I think God (in the Christianity sense) does exist but it's kind of hazy to me.

I feel God's presence more strongly in a earthy, non-christian spiritual sense.

I'm still trying to make sense of it all.