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Thread: There is no God

  1. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Let me first say that if the ground of all being, ie the first cause, was illogical - then by default logic cannot exist, or if it does it has no real meaning. But this is a really messed up form of reality to imagine to exist.

    Ok, now do humans invent logic or do they discover it? I think the latter, so the question of could humans invent logic presents some trouble in answering. Certainly humans have devised systems of logic, but that's not the same as mere invention out of thin air.

    One major attribute that distinguishes us humans from animals is our rational faculties.
    So the theory of opposites implicitly existing stops because of illogical creation? That's cool. I suppose you can't invent logic, but you can invent a logical meaning. I usually do say that we don't invent, but discover. I suppose I should concede my argument then .

    That is true yes.

  2. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Let me first say that if the ground of all being, ie the first cause, was illogical - then by default logic cannot exist, or if it does it has no real meaning. But this is a really messed up form of reality to imagine to exist.

    Ok, now do humans invent logic or do they discover it? I think the latter, so the question of could humans invent logic presents some trouble in answering. Certainly humans have devised systems of logic, but that's not the same as mere invention out of thin air.

    One major attribute that distinguishes us humans from animals is our rational faculties.
    Hmm... I need to find some nice INFJ boy to settle down with and create insane NF babies with.

  3. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    But, no, what you're saying is not obvious to me. Mostly because I don't assume that because I can't imagine it, then it doesn't exist. When I think of the original act of creation, I imagine the first thing that was created the abstract of differentiation... how and what from has no meaning before that point.
    Where did I suppose that if I couldn't imagine it, then it doesn't exist? Nowhere. Instead, I supposed that if something was logically absurd, then it couldn't exist. Things that exist are one thing and not something else. Is it too much to ask that God satisfy the basic prerequisites of what it means for something to exist? I could use this same argument to claim that, in fact, there is a highest prime number, because it doesn't have to make sense to exist: mathematicians and their proofs be damned.

    I like that, by the way, the first thing that was created was abstract differentiation. Except, y'know, how does anything get created by anything in any order or any time before there are even abstract differences? If it was created, then what created it, and how was the thing that created it different to begin with? What caused the differentiation in the first place when nothing was different? It's nonsense on stilts.
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  4. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by reason View Post
    Where did I suppose that if I couldn't imagine it, then it doesn't exist? Nowhere. Instead, I supposed that if something was logically absurd, then it couldn't exist. Things that exist are one thing and not something else. Is it too much to ask that God satisfy the basic prerequisites of what it means for something to exist? I could use this same argument to claim that, in fact, there is a highest prime number, because it doesn't have to make sense to exist: mathematicians and their proofs be damned.

    I like that, by the way, the first thing that was created was abstract differentiation. Except, y'know, how does anything get created by anything in any order or any time before there are even abstract differences? If it was created, then what created it, and how was the thing that created it different to begin with? What caused the differentiation in the first place when nothing was different? It's nonsense on stilts.
    You can't logic your way past that point. What came before the big bang? It had to come from somewhere.. It's essentially the same question, it's nonsense on stilts, it's our universe.

  5. #195
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    The first cause was illogical? That literally makes as much sense as saying the first trombone was illogical. It's not like logic demands in infinite chain of causes and effects, because logic isn't about cause and effect. It's logically possible that God, the universe, or a trombone just happens to exist for no rhyme nor reason other than just 'cause.
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  6. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by reason View Post
    The first cause was illogical? That literally makes as much sense as saying the first trombone was illogical. It's not like logic demands in infinite chain of causes and effects, because logic isn't about cause and effect. It's logically possible that God, the universe, or a trombone just happens to exist for no rhyme nor reason other than just 'cause.
    True, you have to postulate at some point. But that's just our little system of working things out, we can logic all kinds of unvalid things that way. Does the the big bang having no precedent make any sense to you as far as how you believe the universe works? Where did it come from? Was is an intrusion of some metauniverse? What are the rules of that universe, etc, etc...

  7. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    You can't logic your way past that point. What came before the big bang? It's essentially the same question, it's nonsense on stilts, it's our universe.
    You can't 'logic your way past that point' because there is nothing beyond that point. However, the least we can ask is that explanations of the beginning of universe avoid basic logical errors. It may be that the Big Bang was not the beginning of the universe, but if it was, then there was nothing 'before' the Big Bang, because time didn't exist before the Big Bang. The timeline begins with the Big Bang: no befores allowed. You might as well ask 'what came before there was such thing as before?'

    It's like people who ask 'What's outside the universe?' They may as well be asking 'What's an exception to everything?' There is no exception to everything, there is no outside to the universe, there is no creator of everything, and there is no before the universe.

    NOTE: the word 'universe' traditionally just means everything. It is sometimes used to mean something slightly different in modern physics, but here I am using the term in its classical sense.
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  8. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by reason View Post
    You can't 'logic your way past that point' because there is nothing beyond that point. However, the least we can ask is that explanations of the beginning of universe avoid basic logical errors. It may be that the Big Bang was not the beginning of the universe, but if it was, then there was nothing 'before' the Big Bang, because time didn't exist before the Big Bang. The timeline begins with the Big Bang: no befores allowed. You might as well ask 'what came before there was such thing as before?'
    Hey, that's fine with me. You were the one arguing that there would always have to be something that proceeded the existence of something else.

  9. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    Hey, that's fine with me. You were the one arguing that there would always have to be something that proceeded the existence of something else.
    No, I never argued that. I did argue that you had presupposed differentiation in the universe before its creation (for how does one create where there is no differentiation to begin with). I have affirmed a couple of times that 'shit happens' is a perfectly sensible answer to the question 'why does anything exist?'
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  10. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by reason View Post
    No, I never argued that. I did argue that you had presupposed differentiation in the universe before its creation (for how does one create where there is no differentiation to begin with). I have affirmed a couple of times that 'shit happens' is a perfectly sensible answer to the question 'why does anything exist?'
    The difference between saying shit happens and the world was created is that creation implies greater meaning in the universe, which is something that I perceive. Words like create become just shadows of what happened if God created our universe. There is no reason to think that we are capable of conveying the right ideas to explain the event. If we could, any claim of God would only be god, an entity which has another technical term: demiurge. Nothing more than a space alien with magic technology.

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