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Thread: There is no God

  1. #181
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReflecTcelfeR View Post
    Why is he bound by it? Because we're bound by it?

    edit. But we aren't bound by logic because we can still be illogical. I don't see why it's so hard to accept an illogical god.
    I think it's important to make the distinction of an 'illogical God' and a God that transcends logic. That God is neither logical or illogical.

  2. #182
    ReflecTcelfeR
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    I think it's important to make the distinction of an 'illogical God' and a God that transcends logic. That God is neither logical or illogical.
    I don't believe god has an actual thought process really, or that it thinks at all.

  3. #183
    Senior Member reason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReflecTcelfeR View Post
    I apologize. You can say whatever you wish, you just may be wrong; I personally cannot live with that certainty, but being illogical does exist so technically logic could be an invention of man and god is apart from that.
    Being illogical exists, in the sense that I can hold two contradictory beliefs at once. We can also study the nature of logical inconsistency. However, my existence, in and of itself, cannot be inconsistent. I can believe x is true and not-x is true, but I cannot be x and be not-x. Of course, God could, I suppose, be illogical in the former sense, but the nature of His existence cannot be illogical in and of itself. To exist is to be something with definite properties: to be an x but not to be a not-x, to exist and to not not-exist.
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReflecTcelfeR View Post
    Why is he bound by it? Because we're bound by it?
    I believe it's related to god being a necessary being.

    I don't see why it's so hard to accept an illogical god.
    For one, if god wasn't logical - logic itself couldn't exist.

  5. #185
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reason View Post
    Being illogical exists, in the sense that I can hold two contradictory beliefs at once. We can also study the nature of logical inconsistency. However, my existence, in and of itself, cannot be inconsistent. I cannot be be x and be not-x. Of course, God could, I suppose, be illogical in the former sense, but the nature of His existence cannot be illogical in and of itself. To exist is to be something with definite properties: to be an x but not a not-x, to exist and to not not exist.
    Look, I'm not trying to convince you as to the existence of God.. but why would you assume that the creator would have to conform to the terms of their own creation?

  6. #186
    ReflecTcelfeR
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    Quote Originally Posted by reason View Post
    Being illogical exists, in the sense that I can hold two contradictory beliefs at once. We can also study the nature of logical inconsistency. However, my existence, in and of itself, cannot be inconsistent. I can believe x is true and not-x is true, but I cannot be x and be not-x. Of course, God could, I suppose, be illogical in the former sense, but the nature of His existence cannot be illogical in and of itself. To exist is to be something with definite properties: to be an x but not to be a not-x, to exist and to not not-exist.
    I guess I've been arguing God's actions more than God's coming into being, his existence has to logical, but he doesn't himself have to logical.

    This was fun. Thank you .

    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    I believe it's related to god being a necessary being.


    For one, if god wasn't logical - logic itself couldn't exist.
    You don't think we could invent logic ourselves?

    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    Look, I'm not trying to convince you as to the existence of God.. but why would you assume that the creator would have to conform to the terms of their own creation?
    This.

  7. #187
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    This thread is getting uh...let me pick a safe word...intangible. That fits.
    -----------------

    A man builds. A parasite asks 'Where is my share?'
    A man creates. A parasite says, 'What will the neighbors think?'
    A man invents. A parasite says, 'Watch out, or you might tread on the toes of God... '


    -----------------

  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReflecTcelfeR View Post
    You don't think we could invent logic ourselves?
    Let me first say that if the ground of all being, ie the first cause, was illogical - then by default logic cannot exist, or if it does it has no real meaning. But this is a really messed up form of reality to imagine to exist.

    Ok, now do humans invent logic or do they discover it? I think the latter, so the question of could humans invent logic presents some trouble in answering. Certainly humans have devised systems of logic, but that's not the same as mere invention out of thin air.

    One major attribute that distinguishes us humans from animals is our rational faculties.

  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    Look, I'm not trying to convince you as to the existence of God.. but why would you assume that the creator would have to conform to the terms of their own creation?
    It's painfully obvious that God did not create everything. Where or when did God exist before creating the universe? Without a universe, there is no there or then to exist in. Do you know what exists nowhere? Nothing, because things that exist are somewhere. Even the notion of creating presupposes a universe where, perhaps among other things, it is possible to create something: cause and effect is being assumed before the universe is supposed to exist. Did I say 'before the universe'? How can there be a before the universe when time doesn't exist yet? The long and short of all this is that, whichever way you swing it, God could not possibly have created everything, because one cannot create unless there is already some metauniverse to do the creating in. Among the laws of this metauniverse, of course, are basic logical truths.

    I don't think people appreciate what they are saying when suggesting that God could act contrary to logical laws. One simply cannot do anything in a way that defies logic, because an action which is logically absurd is not a type of action at all: it's a nothing. An action is a definite event that occurs with intent and consequences, but what intent or consequences would accompany a contradictory non-action? God can no more act contradictory than he can make a circle version of a square. The only way God can make 1 = 2 is if, like the rest of us, he just redefines '1' and '2' to mean the same thing.
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by reason View Post
    It's painfully obvious that God did not create everything. Where or when did God exist before creating the universe? Without a universe, there is no there or then to exist in. Do you know what exists nowhere? Nothing, because things that exist are somewhere. Even the notion of creating presupposes a universe where, perhaps among other things, it is possible to create something: cause and effect is being assumed before the universe is supposed to exist. Did I say 'before the universe'? How can there be a before the universe when time doesn't exist yet? The long and short of all this is that, whichever way you swing it, God could not possibly have created everything, because one cannot create unless there is already some metauniverse to do the creating in. Among the laws of this metauniverse, of course, are basic logical truths.

    I don't think people appreciate what they are saying when suggesting that God could act contrary to logical laws. One simply cannot do anything in a way that defies logic, because an action which is logically absurd is not a type of action at all: it's a nothing. An action is a definite event that occurs with intent and consequences, but what intent or consequences would accompany a contradictory non-action? God can no more act contradictory than he can make a circle version of a square. The only way God can make 1 = 2 is if, like the rest of us, he just redefines '1' and '2' to mean the same thing.
    Hah, actually you're getting very close to where I referred to earlier as the 'veil', the place where people cannot know things about God by intellectualizing or talking.

    But, no, what you're saying is not obvious to me. Mostly because I don't assume that because I can't imagine it, then it doesn't exist. When I think of the original act of creation, I imagine the first thing that was created the abstract of differentiation... how and what from has no meaning before that point.

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