There is no God

[Lark]

I didn't say i was an atheist. I have a thing about rejecting what doesn't make sense. Also I don't know why you would assume that religious belief should be respected any more than any other statement about the world. It seems pretty childish to think it should be so.

Really? Do children naturally respect things? I would have thought it was the behaviour of a mature adult to respect even that which they believe is wrong but which others hold to be true so long as there is no imposition involved. I dont assume that religious belief should be accorded any more respect than other opinions BTW.

 

[Lark]

I'm talking about studies, numbers. It's not derogatory to say that believers score low on psychometric tests, it's simply what the evidence say. That's the sort of thing u can do with empirical data, as opposed to making up stuff. You should try it.

Lies, damn lies and statistics?

 

[Mole]

Erasmus is one of my favourite thinkers.

You see, I knew you weren't all bad.

 

[A window to the soul]

Holes in the logic tend to bother me too much, also the whole singing etc just bored me to death as a kid. Generally it's either early indoctrination or some events leading to an entanglement between sense of purpose\ego\self esteem and religious belief later in life. I think reality is more interesting than glorified daddy issues and\or intellectual laziness

Lah dee dah. How deep did you dig?

P.S., Your halo is on funny.

 

[BAJ]

There is not a single human problem that cannot be answered better by science. There is not a single thing in nature that cannot be answered better by science.

"I don't know" is where science begins. Not knowing is where the action is.

Religion is generally a catch all for "I've stopped thinking." It can be viewed as a giant rug, under which the unexplained can be swept so that you don't have to think about it anymore.

It is artful and beautiful, and I'm attracted to it. I've been involved with it. I also like rugs too. Whenever someone talks to me about God, I'll exchange the word with "giant rug of anti-thought", the big catch all for unexplained thoughts and feelings of exhilaration common to all peoples. It's a place to sweep things when you are finished thinking or discussing.

I grew up Methodist, and I've been several things, including Southern Baptist, Charismatic, and Roman Catholic. Because of my attraction to it, my road out of it was a long one...and I may still go back due to the attraction to the art of it.

However, various encounters and experiences with people led me to believe that it is all useful art and nonsense. I operate base on anecdote and feeling. I believe feelings are real, and the brain chemistry in religion is real, but I believe that the substance does not go beyond brain chemistry.

Recently I went to a talk with Michael Shermer, author of "the believing brain". I've not slogged through two books I got by him, nor the whole big giant pile of books I got by other authors, including the Hitchens brothers.

I did go for a five day trip to Japan recently. Mysteriously I saw Buddhist and Shinto temples everywhere, and the people seemed nice, helpful, polite, kind, and harmonious with scarcely a Christian church in sight. Wow, it's difficult for me to understand why they are all going to hell...

in your book at least.

 

[Riva]

The reason I do not believe in an almighty all powerful God is because proving his existence would also prove that he is a arrogant, not so thoughtful, childish, attention seeking sociopath, who is more concerned about his image than making the merits or sins that one commits count.

(I ♥ Jesus.)

Jesus is the only person who brings sympathy/empathy/kindness to the Bible.

Before him it was a nightmare. It was a horror story reading the old testament.

Urgh!

Ps - Of course there are glimpses of kindness in the old testament. But it's more of a shadow of kindness than kindness itself.

 

[BAJ]

[YOUTUBE="I225Vcs3X0g"] Not the best Ark video I've seen, but some good points.[/YOUTUBE]


Setting aside that asinine tone of the video, which I don't like, consider the facts and report your rationalizations of the story, if you believe it. If you don't believe it, then you must believe the Bible is in part fable. This is for Nerd Girl and any other Biblical fundamentalist how they get around all those problems and others:

1. Sheer size and volume of animals compared with ark
2. The lack of habitat
3. The lack of oxygen and the cold
4. The volume of food
5. The separation of predatory animals and non-predatory
6. How to keep predatory animals fed when the meet will rot
7. The covering volume of water lacking to cover the whole Earth
8. The poisoning of most sea life
9. The destruction of slow-growing reef habitats
10. The moral question of murdering everyone
11. The gathering of species
12. Genetic diversity for animals and humans
13. Incest and family life
14. The age of the people involved

I could probably find a lot more questions with this. I also know or could come up with many rationalizations, but think the story is ridiculously myth. Aren't there now better ways to explain rainbows? Every child with a prism can make one, not just "god."

Next, if you do not believe that the Bible is literally true, then how can you form any basis for your faith? In short, how do you support your faith? Do you use reason or anecdote? Choose one or both, and relate the respective support, emotional or logical.

I think using the Bible is circular. I believe unicorns exist because it says so right in this book, I might say. Any questions, refer to the book.

See I wrote my own brand of deity down a napkin, and napkin god is the one true god because it says so on this napkin! Hoorah!

See praying to unicorns or napkin gods or whatever brings the same prayer results and joy to me!

Good luck.

 

[Mole]

Yes, it is interesting that there are unicorns in the bible but not neanderthals.

 

[A window to the soul]

Jesus is the only person who brings sympathy/empathy/kindness to the Bible.

Before him it was a nightmare. It was a horror story reading the old testament.

Urgh!

Ps - Of course there are glimpses of kindness in the old testament. But it's more of a shadow of kindness than kindness itself.

[I believe.]

 

[BAJ]

Yes, it is interesting that there are unicorns in the bible but not neanderthals.

I'm not sure there are unicorns in the bible.

I believe thousands of dinosaur species and other fauna are summed up with, "Levianthans of the deep" or something, even though many weren't aquatic.

Also, why are ALL the "Leviathans of the Deep" dead when it was a "flood"?

Hominids!

10,000 year old cave paintings, older than the Bible by far.

Of course, we all know that the animals were really created in the "Dream-time", but I'm not sure this is before or after the Japanese Islands were created when the deity Izanagi thrust his spear into the ocean...

 

[Ethanescence]

I'm not sure there are unicorns in the bible.

Here, I found one mention. Unicorns feature about 9 times in the King James Version.

Isaiah 34:7
"And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness."

Fat with fatness? That's what I call divine poetry. It's my second favorite passage, after Ezekiel 23:20.

 

[BAJ]

[I believe.]

Jesus = God of the Old Testament = Holy Spirit

Unless you are a Mormon. Mormons believe these are all separate physical entities that live on an alien planet.

So the wacko who murdered all those people is also Jesus...unless Jesus really isn't God...or there are more than one entity...like the Mormons.

Then again, I suppose we need to kill all the Egyptian first born. That will teach the Pharaoh a lesson, not to mention destruction of cities towns and the whole human population, except for a few.

Every Christian generation has believed Jesus was coming back in their life-time, pretty much. The year 1000 was especially big for this belief, for example.

Where is the evidence?

If it is feelings, fine, explain it.

I have a good feeling too, but explain how you know. "I just know" is retarded within the context of this thread.

I often have feelings or dreams. Maybe 90% of the time, if I have a bad feeling, then something is wrong. I better go check. But explain how you know.

Here, I found one mention. Unicorns feature about 9 times in the King James Version.

Isaiah 34:7
"And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness

Oh alright then! Thank you. According to this, they were still extant after the flood. I shall have to study this to find out how many unicorns there are...since no evidence has ever been found.

 

[Lark]

To be honest its not difficult to live without God or as though there were no God, a lot of people do this, even those who are professed believers and I would also say many fundamentalists, particularly those who wish the imposition by violence or terror of their codes of conduct upon others, but those who struggle with the non-existence of God are probably actively trying to combat or repress spiritual impulses which are moving from the unconscious or preconscious to the conscious mind.

Reading Victor Frankl's Man's Search for Ultimate Meaning has convinced me of that, even if its not a great book and only has one good intelligible page to every three, just as people might have infantile sexual beliefs in their unconsciousness driving them I think people have spiritual ones too, the only difference is that in our culture one is permitted and another isnt. The reverse of what once was. I hope that eventually it wont be an either-or deal.

 

[BAJ]

My special "prayer" is to observe nature. My destiny is survival of fish babies. It is a game. Several conditions can kill the eggs such as fungus, shock, chemicals, system failure, consumption by parents, disturbance by parents, sedimentation, and excessive sunlight.

Then several things eat the babies. Also there are things the babies eat. All this depends on sunlight and the weather, and timing of hormone injections and egg development. Then the baby fish go through various stages of development, where they are vulnerable to different things. Sometimes what kills them early on becomes their necessary food later, so it is all a delicate balance between killing the predators without destroying the fish babies.

If praying "to ______", insert your favorite god, worked then I would do it.

What works, folks, is science.

So a patient goes to the hospital. If the patient lives, then "Thank Jesus for the miracle!" If the patient dies, then "It just wasn't God's will." This doesn't mention medical SCIENCE. What impotence that god could not prevent the condition or accident! Why doesn't he remove the disease from the Earth or prevent the accident? Apparently god is unable to do it. If he is able, then he is unwilling, which makes him into a bastard, if he exists.

So, in principle, it doesn't matter.

I once went to hear Kushner speak. He is the Rabbinical author of "Why bad things happen to good people." The idea is that god doesn't cause these problems, but provides strength for us to navigate through them.

Fine. Very well. What it boils down to is social grooming, and social language for nurturing of emotions between human beings, and no religion is more valid than another. It is exclusively an emotional crutch.

Meanwhile, science works to improve medicine and health and increase longevity and quality of life.

Reading Victor Frankl's Man's Search for Ultimate Meaning has convinced me of that, even if its not a great book and only has one good intelligible page to every three, just as people might have infantile sexual beliefs in their unconsciousness driving them I think people have spiritual ones too, the only difference is that in our culture one is permitted and another isnt. The reverse of what once was. I hope that eventually it wont be an either-or deal.

Man's search for meaning propped up my computer monitor for years until I got my flat screen. I do like it. I believe we (or at least I) must have hope and vision for the future.

I also shave my head. I admire how they used little bits of glass to shave their heads so that they looked more healthy and younger. I hold this philosophy and the simplicity of it.

 

[BAJ]

[MENTION=7280]Lark[/MENTION] and others: Also I had the benefit (as I said the "NT Christians" exclusive only club) of recently hearing Michael Shermer speak, author of "the believing brain". He presents that it is likely a predisposition, following about 50% nature/ nurture. You have "red and blue" states and believers or not, and it is generally a matter of predetermined factors that the person cannot help. Thus, it is not a question of converting one to the other, for that is rare.

For my case, I'm some sort of hybrid attracted to the light, feeling, and mystery, but I also have the extremely liberal gene as well. I once wrote Asimov that I was a "mystical scientist." He did not write back.

I'm probably mostly like Unitarian Universalist right now, which has the ceremony of religion minus the bigotry and conservatism of main Christianity.

I do have issues, which I strive to understand...which I could go into at great depth.

For one example, i went to Anglican at the Westminster Abbey to hear the boys choir around Christmas time. I was wearing a hat to protect my ears from the cold, and a cleric ordered me to take it off. He was wearing a little round hat on the back of his head. I told him, "But you are wearing a hat too." You see, this is hat discrimination, and it is a chronic exhibition of the basic stupidity of religion. I mean, his hat served no practical function.

So my genetic and nurturing predisposes me to find dogma extremely repellant...and persons holding their view of the exclusivity of their truth...THEIR SPECIAL HAT...OR THEIR SPECIAL BOOK. It is repellant to me. It makes me angry by my very nature.

I don't believe Christians are stupid. My sister has a doctorate in a medical field, but her father in law is a Baptist minister. They are completely rapped up in their church, but I think in many ways she is smarter than me. She is certainly more organized, social, diligent, and industrious than I am.

But still, I will question anyone who believes in the exclusive nature of their truth, and who does not think, or wants me to stop thinking, or wants to stop the progression of scientific thought.

 

[Lark]

[MENTION=7280]Lark[/MENTION] and others: Also I had the benefit (as I said the "NT Christians" exclusive only club) of recently hearing Michael Shermer speak, author of "the believing brain". He presents that it is likely a predisposition, following about 50% nature/ nurture. You have "red and blue" states and believers or not, and it is generally a matter of predetermined factors that the person cannot help. Thus, it is not a question of converting one to the other, for that is rare.

For my case, I'm some sort of hybrid attracted to the light, feeling, and mystery, but I also have the extremely liberal gene as well. I once wrote Asimov that I was a "mystical scientist." He did not write back.

I'm probably mostly like Unitarian Universalist right now, which has the ceremony of religion minus the bigotry and conservatism of main Christianity.

I do have issues, which I strive to understand...which I could go into at great depth.

For one example, i went to Anglican at the Westminster Abbey to hear the boys choir around Christmas time. I was wearing a hat to protect my ears from the cold, and a cleric ordered me to take it off. He was wearing a little round hat on the back of his head. I told him, "But you are wearing a hat too." You see, this is hat discrimination, and it is a chronic exhibition of the basic stupidity of religion. I mean, his hat served no practical function.

So my genetic and nurturing predisposes me to find dogma extremely repellant...and persons holding their view of the exclusivity of their truth...THEIR SPECIAL HAT...OR THEIR SPECIAL BOOK. It is repellant to me. It makes me angry by my very nature.

I don't believe Christians are stupid. My sister has a doctorate in a medical field, but her father in law is a Baptist minister. They are completely rapped up in their church, but I think in many ways she is smarter than me. She is certainly more organized, social, diligent, and industrious than I am.

But still, I will question anyone who believes in the exclusive nature of their truth, and who does not think, or wants me to stop thinking, or wants to stop the progression of scientific thought.

And yet your post is positively littered with "truisms" you've not questioned and show no inclination to question, the supposition of bigotry and conservatism on the part of Christianity, your self-righteousness when asked to remove your hat, infact I put it to you that your criticisms of christianity, or religion more generally, betray a really, really superficial and simplified acquaintence with doctrines or thinking associated with either.

Do you have any idea of the rites, relics, scriptures and traditions and why they should be important? Is it just an unthinking devotion do you suppose? If it is patently, obviously absurd or wrong how has it endured while more supposedly enlightened or enlightenment traditions or ideologies have not?

I can understand how someone can feel offended when they are challenged and dont understand why and then attribute ill motives or beliefs to those who have challenged them. I was a teenager once and did it a lot, especially when I was seventeen and saw much of my daily life as a struggle against illegitimate authority but I grew older, realised that my melodramatic self-narrated heroic tale wasnt exactly a true reflection of reality.

In fact I have a story of my own in which I wore a peaked baseball cap all the time and was asked to remove it by a criminology lecturer and felt offended by the request, he explained that there was no risk of rain indoors and no need to wear it. Not right away but after speaking with him a number of times I became more persuaded of what he said.

Christianity is not in error for failing to conform to contemporary trends or fashions in thought, feelings or values, most of which have come to resemble those of ancient greece and rome once again and which Christianity did not embrace when they were predominant last.

 

[BAJ]

And yet your post is positively littered with "truisms" you've not questioned and show no inclination to question, the supposition of bigotry and conservatism on the part of Christianity, your self-righteousness when asked to remove your hat, infact I put it to you that your criticisms of christianity, or religion more generally, betray a really, really superficial and simplified acquaintence with doctrines or thinking associated with either.

Absolutely! I hold many truisms, some of them nonsensical. It's much worse than you think. I have feelings, then look for reasons and rationalizations of them.

In the church environment, raised Methodist, and converted to various other forms such as Southern Baptist and Roman Catholic. I felt acceptance or ostracism or had encounters with narrow minded-superficial idiots and bigots in the church.

The church offered both a community and a relationship. The results of which were supposedly effective and powerful, but I encountered in myself and other people the ineffectiveness of this, leading to disillusionment.

Either God can remove things or he cannot; he is simply devoid of power or completely disinterested. Either there is effective scriptural action, or it is false. So my reasons are deep and personal.

However, I'm not sure what I should read in order to get in touch with this depth you speak of. I mean, wow, who do you hold as deep? Aquinas? St. John of the Cross? C.S. Lewis? Pascal? Francis Schaeffer? Kierkegaard? Ignatius?

Do you have any idea of the rites, relics, scriptures and traditions and why they should be important? Is it just an unthinking devotion do you suppose? If it is patently, obviously absurd or wrong how has it endured while more supposedly enlightened or enlightenment traditions or ideologies have not?

Yes. I was watch a program on Mexico, and they have such devotion to the virgin of Guadalupe (sp?). They interviewed a female cliff diver, and she explained that she prayed so "Nothing bad would happen." So then she dove, and she was injured, flailing around in the water. After she was treated by her coach, she could move her arm, and they took this as sign of faith that she'd been spared worse harm. Well why not spare her altogether?

I'm not sure what you mean by me having a shallow appreciation of Christian tradition, as if I dipped just my toe into the Baptismal or never read a single book on European history. You shall have to prove that point. Why do you think they survive? Of course, we know it is only because of God's love, and not because Muslims or Christians ever touched anyone with the sword.

If you want me to theorize, then I suggest the the genetic propensity to be religious is a significant amount of the genome. Yet even if it does carry a larger amount of people, tradition, or genetic material, majority opinion or longevity of opinion do not preclude truth.

Further science is advancing greater at this point. We've left the crystalline spheres, and can see beyond them.

I can understand how someone can feel offended when they are challenged and dont understand why and then attribute ill motives or beliefs to those who have challenged them. I was a teenager once and did it a lot, especially when I was seventeen and saw much of my daily life as a struggle against illegitimate authority but I grew older, realised that my melodramatic self-narrated heroic tale wasnt exactly a true reflection of reality.

That's exactly true. I completely agree. I would certainly react differently at 41 than I did at 22

In fact I have a story of my own in which I wore a peaked baseball cap all the time and was asked to remove it by a criminology lecturer and felt offended by the request, he explained that there was no risk of rain indoors and no need to wear it. Not right away but after speaking with him a number of times I became more persuaded of what he said.

It doesn't matter.

Christianity is not in error for failing to conform to contemporary trends or fashions in thought, feelings or values, most of which have come to resemble those of ancient greece and rome once again and which Christianity did not embrace when they were predominant last.

So what your say is that this is just a phase, whereupon we will be more Christian again...like in the dark ages when the church was in charge?

Sounds lovely. Let's hold science back for another 1000 years. Indeed, let's go back to surgery without anesthesia and bubonic plague.

 

[BAJ]

Further, Lark, I was raised Methodist during my childhood.

In high school I wandered and explored humanism and world religions.

Then I came back. I went to Southern Baptist church, but I was an officer my campus Wesley Foundation.

I went to several denominations.

I went Roman Catholic mass for a while, and then I went through their classes to convert in my early 30's. I was a participant in Cursillo de Cristianidad movement, and went into prisons twice with Kairos.

Maybe you are the one who doesn't understand Christian doctrine or Christians.

The difficulty with Christian doctrine is that there are so many different ones. So I could be in error in your book whether or not I actually heard that message in a Christian church. Maybe the minister I heard was wrong in your book.

You haven't...as far as I know...identified which doctrines you are using. Are you using the Catechism of the Catholic Church, or some other book? Are you a Catholic priest? What is your background? Explain which part you don't like. Feel free to educate me.

All you did was say, in essence, that my opinions about hats are immature and that I'm too stupid to understand Christian doctrine, even though Jesus says the little child can understand it. Yet you really didn't address any of my questions.

However, it really doesn't matter, as you said, my heroic little adventure does not matter. I am a miniscule thing in a vast universe. I'll buy that.

One thing I think I do understand is animal care, however. I worked in a primate facility with 1200 monkeys, feeding them, and cleaning their poop, and holding them for the veterinarian when the hurt one another. I worked there two months. I also worked in a veterinary hospital for three months.

I've worked about 12 years in the aquaculture industry, and for the last six years, I've taken care of 200,000 fish per year. At a previous job, I supervised people who took care of 40 million fish per year.

I cannot figure out the ark story. Last night I spent a little more time looking at it. I even found a site with a scale model, supposedly. This was a website for teaching children the TRUTH of the story. I read their facts, and I just don't buy it...as a biologist.

Of course, with "supernatural" intervention, anything is possible I suppose...even though we don't see that today.

But, like you said, it doesn't matter.

 

[A window to the soul]

Jesus = God of the Old Testament = Holy Spirit

Unless you are a Mormon. Mormons believe these are all separate physical entities that live on an alien planet.

So the wacko who murdered all those people is also Jesus...unless Jesus really isn't God...or there are more than one entity...like the Mormons.

Then again, I suppose we need to kill all the Egyptian first born. That will teach the Pharaoh a lesson, not to mention destruction of cities towns and the whole human population, except for a few.

Every Christian generation has believed Jesus was coming back in their life-time, pretty much. The year 1000 was especially big for this belief, for example.

Where is the evidence?

If it is feelings, fine, explain it.

I have a good feeling too, but explain how you know. "I just know" is retarded within the context of this thread.

I often have feelings or dreams. Maybe 90% of the time, if I have a bad feeling, then something is wrong. I better go check. But explain how you know.

You're frolicking in the weeds.

I know you have put a lot of energy into posting and repping me lately.

Respectfully, it was never my intention to make you feel discounted in the Christian NT's thread; I just don't want to discuss my personal beliefs at this time. I feel misunderstood and frutrated because I'm failing to logically explain why I believe what I believe, as evident in the replies.

Anyway, we see things differently. I prefer to leave it at that.

 

[BAJ]

You're frolicking in the weeds.

I know you have put a lot of energy into posting and repping me lately.

Respectfully, it was never my intention to make you feel discounted in the Christian NT's thread; I just don't want to discuss my personal beliefs at this time. I feel misunderstood and frutrated because I'm failing to logically explain why I believe what I believe, as evident in the replies.

Anyway, we see things differently. I prefer to leave it at that.

I apologize.

It doesn't really matter that much, and my reaction has little to do with you...I realize.

And Lark is right, my personal heroic saga, or whatever, is like ripples on the ocean. It doesn't matter. In a 100 years all of us posting here will be dead, and maybe even lost to memory, our debates forgotten, our bones rotting just like the bones of billions of humans before us, Christian or not.

I retire from all debate. I concede. Largely because it doesn't matter at all.

Edit:

I also agree with you about context, which is why I immediately stopped over there and started here.

But actually, it doesn't matter over here either.

I think your stance of just seeing things differently is perfectly fine. I have more important things to deal with.